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Official Suggestion : PvP Improvements (rev. 9)


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#261 douglasj

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 21:59

Hoofmaster wrote:
To summarise what I'm currently thinking:

- When attacking a player, you choose between attacking for XP/Gold or PvP Rating.
Great yes this is good.
- Only allow bounties on attacks for XP/Gold. All bounty attacks would be for XP/Gold.
Yes
- Keep the PvP Protection upgrade (this will prevent attacks for Gold/XP)
Yes but to some extent not completly protected. Just like it is now.
- There would be no need for an opt-in/out as PvP Ladder attacks would not take XP/Gold.
Yes
- Make PvP Ladder rewards unbound.
Yes, But i think their should be bound potions (Thats just me)
Thoughts?


Id like pvp rating to stay within the pvp ladder. Bounty board should be completely unrelated to pvp)
Pvp Protection: All gold/xp should be able to be taken. Gold sinks are great.

#262 shdowdrgn

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 22:00

I don't think attacks for PvP Rating only should be bounty-able. Only attacks for Gold/XP.


They should be to prevent farming, some players that will be hit will probably not want to hit back and that will give people playing the ladder a farming heaven for epic sets and potions and a "dominance" medal lol... Simply make PvP rating attacks do 75% less exp damage and the rating points they gain from it substitutes for gold and lesser xp damage on their target.... Don't take bounties out of the equation :)



i agree on the farming end of this. free hits are free hits how ever you chalk it

#263 LLAP

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 22:01



Ok so..

If I I have 0 rating and get hit for rating I loose... Naff all
If I have 50 rating and get hit I will loose -75% normal EXP
However, if I was to he bit for gold/XP only I am going to loose a full 100% of what I would loose now!

If that is the case, we are flowing in the right direction!!!!!!!!




no -75% if this si the way it will flow it should be 100% of normal XP loss

Believe me, I agree. However, we do need to compromise and with the ongoing outcry over Opt in/out, PvP protection going or staying whatever. -75% seems to be the net best thing, and I cannot see it not coming into the game when PvP revision 666 gets agreed on
(though, I still believe and get ignored when I suggest -75% only apply for
a) the first hit on Player asking to get hit
B) until player asking to get hit is on -5)


#264 Hoofmaster

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 22:02

Hoofmaster wrote:
To summarise what I'm currently thinking:

- When attacking a player, you choose between attacking for XP/Gold or PvP Rating.
Great yes this is good.
- Only allow bounties on attacks for XP/Gold. All bounty attacks would be for XP/Gold.
Yes
- Keep the PvP Protection upgrade (this will prevent attacks for Gold/XP)
Yes but to some extent not completly protected. Just like it is now.
- There would be no need for an opt-in/out as PvP Ladder attacks would not take XP/Gold.
Yes
- Make PvP Ladder rewards unbound.
Yes, But i think their should be bound potions (Thats just me)
Thoughts?


Id like pvp rating to stay within the pvp ladder. Bounty board should be completely unrelated to pvp)
Pvp Protection: All gold/xp should be able to be taken. Gold sinks are great.


I don't think PvP Rating should be obtainable from bounty attacks.

#265 shdowdrgn

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 22:02



Ok so..

If I I have 0 rating and get hit for rating I loose... Naff all
If I have 50 rating and get hit I will loose -75% normal EXP
However, if I was to he bit for gold/XP only I am going to loose a full 100% of what I would loose now!

If that is the case, we are flowing in the right direction!!!!!!!!




no -75% if this si the way it will flow it should be 100% of normal XP loss

Believe me, I agree. However, we do need to compromise and with the ongoing outcry over Opt in/out, PvP protection going or staying whatever. -75% seems to be the net best thing, and I cannot see it not coming into the game when PvP revision 666 gets agreed on
(though, I still believe and get ignored when I suggest -75% only apply for
a) the first hit on Player asking to get hit
B) until player asking to get hit is on -5)


if the XP loss on rating hits only applies to people of greater than 0 rating then there should be no out cry to making that 100%

#266 LLAP

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 22:02



Ok so..

If I I have 0 rating and get hit for rating I loose... Naff all
If I have 50 rating and get hit I will loose -75% normal EXP
However, if I was to he bit for gold/XP only I am going to loose a full 100% of what I would loose now!

If that is the case, we are flowing in the right direction!!!!!!!!




no -75% if this si the way it will flow it should be 100% of normal XP loss


I was thinking it would be normal xp loss...


Oh right, awsome..
where would the reduced XP loss apply then? if anywhere at all now..


#267 LLAP

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 22:04




no -75% if this si the way it will flow it should be 100% of normal XP loss

Believe me, I agree. However, we do need to compromise and with the ongoing outcry over Opt in/out, PvP protection going or staying whatever. -75% seems to be the net best thing, and I cannot see it not coming into the game when PvP revision 666 gets agreed on
(though, I still believe and get ignored when I suggest -75% only apply for
a) the first hit on Player asking to get hit
B) until player asking to get hit is on -5)


if the XP loss on rating hits only applies to people of greater than 0 rating then there should be no out cry to making that 100%

then people would/could/willl sit with little gold, never attack anyone and loose only a bit of gold and then a little mroe to repair gear.


#268 Maehdros

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 22:04

What about if players with a PvP Rating greater than 0 also took XP/Gold loss when attacked for PvP Rating? (As XP was taken, they could then place a bounty on the attacker).




IF rating is above 0, then xp loss will happen, and be bountyable..sure.

If rating is 0 then its either hit for rating or hit for gold and xp, both of which should still be bountyable tho.


We want players to pvp more. PvP is all about risk. Players see the rewards and want them... they should risk something. if they go around slapping everyone in range..they should risk being bountied by all of em..or none of em. They made the choice to attack..they should deal with the consequences of their actions.. be it a hit back,.. a delevel.. a normal bounty..or nothing at all. RISK.



And instead of typing another response. @ hoof Fine, remove rating from the BB.BUT make EVERY attack bountyable.

#269 Hoofmaster

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 22:05





no -75% if this si the way it will flow it should be 100% of normal XP loss


I was thinking it would be normal xp loss...


Oh right, awsome..
where would the reduced XP loss apply then? if anywhere at all now..


I don't think it's relevant.

#270 MummRa

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 22:05

I'm a bit iffy on this, since it pretty much guarantees that even true non-PvP-ers (like myself) will be hit five times per ladder reset. I like the notion that your rating will decrease below zero after a hit, thus acting as an indicator that you have been hit; however, the fact that you are almost DEFINITELY going to be hit the five times until you get to negative-5 worries me a bit. Perhaps a system that reduces the rating taken from targets with negative rating (scaling as the rating goes lower and lower) would work. (That might already be in the formula; I don't understand it enough to comment on that.)

Also, could you give us some indication as to how reduced the price on xp lock would be? The ability to lock xp for 24 or 48 hours, while getting the five hits out of the way, might be a feasible option, but that depends on just how reduced the price is, and whether anyone besides donators and high-level players could afford it.

[Apologies if I'm repeating points; I wrote this immediately after reading the changes, and have not read through the 18 pages -- and counting -- of comments.]



Making XP Lock a feasible (cheaper) upgrade for all levels (even lower levels where you are you only make a handful of FSP per hunt)

#271 douglasj

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 22:05

Hoofmaster wrote:
To summarise what I'm currently thinking:

- When attacking a player, you choose between attacking for XP/Gold or PvP Rating.
Great yes this is good.
- Only allow bounties on attacks for XP/Gold. All bounty attacks would be for XP/Gold.
Yes
- Keep the PvP Protection upgrade (this will prevent attacks for Gold/XP)
Yes but to some extent not completly protected. Just like it is now.
- There would be no need for an opt-in/out as PvP Ladder attacks would not take XP/Gold.
Yes
- Make PvP Ladder rewards unbound.
Yes, But i think their should be bound potions (Thats just me)
Thoughts?


Id like pvp rating to stay within the pvp ladder. Bounty board should be completely unrelated to pvp)
Pvp Protection: All gold/xp should be able to be taken. Gold sinks are great.


I don't think PvP Rating should be obtainable from bounty attacks.


Not saying your not just wanted to bring it up.

#272 LLAP

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 22:06

I'm a bit iffy on this, since it pretty much guarantees that even true non-PvP-ers (like myself) will be hit five times per ladder reset. I like the notion that your rating will decrease below zero after a hit, thus acting as an indicator that you have been hit; however, the fact that you are almost DEFINITELY going to be hit the five times until you get to negative-5 worries me a bit. Perhaps a system that reduces the rating taken from targets with negative rating (scaling as the rating goes lower and lower) would work. (That might already be in the formula; I don't understand it enough to comment on that.)

Also, could you give us some indication as to how reduced the price on xp lock would be? The ability to lock xp for 24 or 48 hours, while getting the five hits out of the way, might be a feasible option, but that depends on just how reduced the price is, and whether anyone besides donators and high-level players could afford it.

[Apologies if I'm repeating points; I wrote this immediately after reading the changes, and have not read through the 18 pages -- and counting -- of comments.]



Making XP Lock a feasible (cheaper) upgrade for all levels (even lower levels where you are you only make a handful of FSP per hunt)

Make the price of it be differance dependant on what level brakcet you are in? O.o


#273 fortville

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 22:08

To summarise what I'm currently thinking:

- When attacking a player, you choose between attacking for XP/Gold or PvP Rating.

- Only allow bounties on attacks for XP/Gold. All bounty attacks would be for XP/Gold.

- Keep the PvP Protection upgrade (this will prevent attacks for Gold/XP)

- There would be no need for an opt-in/out as PvP Ladder attacks would not take XP/Gold.

- Make PvP Ladder rewards unbound.

Thoughts?

I understand that you're eager to make a solution that works for everyone when it comes to PvP. But every revision seem to cater more for the non-participants on the cost of the PvP perspective, and the initial thought for these suggestions was to improve and revive PvP I think. The idea above will not fix anything for PvP, it will probably make it worse. I would rather you just leave it as it is.

What's happening here is a separation of ladder play for tokens from old-school PvP. Old-school will still carry all the risk that it ever has. Ladder play without risk of XP loss will open up a new realm for all to enjoy thus maybe breathing some life into the game.

#274 Egami

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 22:09

Okay, was trying to make a simple response. Let's go economics.

Your conclusion that this would inflate FSP prices (more than they already are) is probably flawed. Perhaps if all the players over, say, level 800 that ALSO currently pay for PvP protection hunted at the same time this may be true. We could see a spike in prices. I have no idea how many pay for PvP protection. (Personally, I always thought it should be bought with gold... at the same prices. But that's a laugh... would have helped the MP though, hehe)

In any case, all of those people that are holding gold just below the protection level... Logic says that they are holding it for some reason. Whatever that reason be, we can assume that they "need" the gold. Hence, they will end up selling their FSP over time to get the necessary gold back.

It's zero sum here... Prices will indeed spike during their hunting times. But since the need increases equally, this should counteract as they sell FSP to buy back gold.

I see you are currently holding 9.7 million gold... just below your protection level. I'm willing to bet that before your next hunt you will be getting rid of all of it... especially since you will make 12 million on your hunt. When you do that, you will be spiking the prices. So... what's the difference?

Zero sum... And if you are worried about MP prices, you should definitely be pro PVP... gold lost vs stolen is a nice sink ,oP


Actually, I am not spiking prices... my current MP bid is well below current 188k level... I just want to sell my gold when it suits me.

Lets look history... up until point PvP protection was introduced, MP rised like 30k in a year, now it has been pretty stable between 190 and 170k for half a year.


Phew, finally got to this page... probably 5 more while I'm writing this, lol

Well... I'm not sure how well you understood my response. You think the price "stability" has something to do with the PvP protection?

PvP protection has no place in MP prices. Zero. I've seen today, prices at 200k and also below 180k. It's supply and demand... period. That's how prices work.

Of course you want to sell your gold when it suits you. I'm also not saying that "you" personally are spiking prices. It's inflation that does that... I remember when 25k was a standard price. That was then, this is now.

MY POINT: If you are currently holding your limit for PvP protection on gold... all additional gold you gain is going to be spent. Your point then is mute. Before and during your next hunt, you will have to "get rid" of 10 million gold. It makes no difference on MP prices that you will lose that protection and have to get rid of the 9 million now rather than in a week or two weeks... or whatever.

I am neither a leveler nor a PvPer. I was against PvP Protection when it came out. I felt it was something for "rich" players as a way to avoid what is part of the game. I think players need to progress in the game they are playing. If they don't like the game, I'm not 100% sure what they are doing here. This doesn't mean they have to "do" PvP, but there are many ways to "deal with it". That said, I do think PvP protection is a nice way for HCS to make money and I am "not" 100% against it.

@HOOF... maybe some people would like the "alternative" of lifting the max on bank deposits? I haven't thought too much about it... but players are a lot further up when they were back in the day. Maybe lifting it to... 20? or some random other amount, lol


@don... I did see your question about the 7.5 million. Lots of players have given some advice in the thread that are the basics about gold protection.

This answer is not a solution for all players, but... in your specific case... You have close to 30k stam. I assume you hunt about twice a month... every two weeks. You've spent 100 FSP on the PvP Protection. Translated to the refill bank depos upgrade that currently costs 20, that would give you 5 or an additional 50 depos (assuming you've bought all 10)... That would more than take care of the 15 million gold (extra 7.5 million per hunt)... Just a thought...

#275 LLAP

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 22:10

To summarise what I'm currently thinking:

- When attacking a player, you choose between attacking for XP/Gold or PvP Rating.

- Only allow bounties on attacks for XP/Gold. All bounty attacks would be for XP/Gold.

- Keep the PvP Protection upgrade (this will prevent attacks for Gold/XP)

- There would be no need for an opt-in/out as PvP Ladder attacks would not take XP/Gold.

- Make PvP Ladder rewards unbound.

Thoughts?


Could you type up somthing like this again with the more recent discussed..?


#276 MummRa

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 22:11

To summarise what I'm currently thinking:

- When attacking a player, you choose between attacking for XP/Gold or PvP Rating.

- Only allow bounties on attacks for XP/Gold. All bounty attacks would be for XP/Gold.

- Keep the PvP Protection upgrade (this will prevent attacks for Gold/XP)

- There would be no need for an opt-in/out as PvP Ladder attacks would not take XP/Gold.

- Make PvP Ladder rewards unbound.

Thoughts?


Could you type up somthing like this again with the more recent discussed..?


and address the issue of your thoughts on what the reduction will be and maybe how long between resets

#277 Removed20081

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 22:11



What about if players with a PvP Rating greater than 0 also took XP/Gold loss when attacked for PvP Rating? (As XP was taken, they could then place a bounty on the attacker).




IF rating is above 0, then xp loss will happen, and be bountyable..sure.

If rating is 0 then its either hit for rating or hit for gold and xp, both of which should still be bountyable tho.


We want players to pvp more. PvP is all about risk. Players see the rewards and want them... they should risk something. if they go around slapping everyone in range..they should risk being bountied by all of em..or none of em. They made the choice to attack..they should deal with the consequences of their actions.. be it a hit back,.. a delevel.. a normal bounty..or nothing at all. RISK.



And instead of typing another response. @ hoof Fine, remove rating from the BB.BUT make EVERY attack bountyable.


Agreed I could stomach this... +1 :)

#278 Hoofmaster

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 22:15



What about if players with a PvP Rating greater than 0 also took XP/Gold loss when attacked for PvP Rating? (As XP was taken, they could then place a bounty on the attacker).




IF rating is above 0, then xp loss will happen, and be bountyable..sure.

If rating is 0 then its either hit for rating or hit for gold and xp, both of which should still be bountyable tho.


We want players to pvp more. PvP is all about risk. Players see the rewards and want them... they should risk something. if they go around slapping everyone in range..they should risk being bountied by all of em..or none of em. They made the choice to attack..they should deal with the consequences of their actions.. be it a hit back,.. a delevel.. a normal bounty..or nothing at all. RISK.



And instead of typing another response. @ hoof Fine, remove rating from the BB.BUT make EVERY attack bountyable.


We could make PvP Rating hits bounty-able as well, but it would be a bounty for XP/Gold, not PvP Rating. Thoughts?

#279 LLAP

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 22:16

We could make PvP Rating hits bounty-able as well, but it would be a bounty for XP/Gold, not PvP Rating. Thoughts?

Yeah Hoof, that is deffinatly what is needed!


#280 Josh1404

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 22:16

We could make PvP Rating hits bounty-able as well, but it would be a bounty for XP/Gold, not PvP Rating. Thoughts?


YES!


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