Security Bulletin
#141
Posted 13 January 2012 - 23:28
[crystal titan hunter, secured many solo titans. Running a customised browser, SSD hard drive and a customised internet connection]
What we should all be asking ourselves is: What should titan hunting be like?
It should never be the case of whoever has the best tuned script wins.
It should never be about butchering a browser/computer to give an edge.
Everyone should for the most part be on a level playing field, that's what web games are about. Offering the even experience. The moment you get a situation where players feel others have an undue gain, there will be bitterness and subsequently will start to hurt the game developers in the pockets with less support coming in by donations.
There have always been people who have tried to find ways to give them that little extra edge. That's just human nature.
The problem is, that if you think back to "what should titan hunting be like?" and then look at what it has come to with the script(s) in use, It's so far from the intention that it was only logical that something was done about it.
Location is something which in the best case scenario wouldn't have too much of an impact, but with the limited budget of HCS location is something that will be a bit of an advantage for some players. This, however can be addressed somewhat by the movement rates on the new map UI.
I've seen titan hunting evolve over the last few years. From the days where it was introduced and watching the progression of how those who knew more about computers got more and more of an edge over Joe public. As there became the elite crowds of superhunters (many on the fields will know the names of those who seem to be on any and every titan), the average Joe public player gets frustrated and demoralised and thus gives up.
What the banning of the script shows to me, is being a positive step to making the part of the game subsequently accessible to all players (within reason) again. Over Christmas I used a mobile connection (tethered cellphone to laptop with roughly ~500ms ping) to hunt in the XP event. The new map allowed me to hunt in a way I would never have been able to before with movement at a similar rate to when I am at home.
Why is this important? Under the new map, it means that Joe public regardless of how computer smart they are, can start to participate in the game again. While people might think "It's their fault for not knowing enough about computers", the truth is though that people without computer smarts are still customers of HCS. Chances are they still donate and it's in HCS's interests to make a game platform as consistent as they can for everyone. If Joe public enjoys the game more, they will support it more often with donations.
As an international player, I see this change as a step in the right direction. I think of many who are limited location wise and the improved speed found from the new map UI. Even with lightwalk/titanstride etc it did often come down to more about how you mangled your computer. Without the butchering of your computer lightwalk/titanstride move speeds are about the same for me as an international player as what the new map presents. This means that Joe public who isn't a computer guru can finally enjoy and participate in a part of the game that for a long time has been nothing more than a cause of frustration.
The next logical step to follow up from this announcement would be to finish the new map UI off and make it the way forward. If it is to be kept for some players (I remember there's a blind player somewhere), then stop titans from spawning on the old map UI.
While there are 'approved' scripts available, there will always be people who will make their own adjustments to them to get a bit more out of the script or to get that edge. I for one am happy to see HCS finally putting their hoof down and look forward to seeing a few 0's start appearing once the cows start kicking in their monitoring.
#142
Posted 13 January 2012 - 23:32
the 1 sec delay isn't the only delay to killing -perhaps you have a larger ping compared to those with pings of 50 or less - your computer may not be setup as efficiently as others'
I have tried titanhunting with new map, it works about as fast as the old map+unmodified TS for me, I am just waiting to not see some players anymore that seem to be able to make titans disappear consistently, while i am not being able to kill due to the 1 sec delay.
SOHAIL, I would have thought you would understand I am referring to the message I get when I try and hit a titan.
My ping IS slow, my pageloading IS slow, regardless of that, on old map, with TS/LW I used to have to count to three for me not to get this message back, even though that would also take a few secs to get back to me.
On the new map, I move a lot faster, and still get the 'you cannot kill' messages, see most people on the square there along with me trying to kill it, (and presumably getting same messages, as it generally takes a while to dispose of the critter) yet some players will show up and titans poof immediately.
So that is why I am convinced these use some kind of kill-scripts, not TS or LW original scripts, as they are only move scripts, speeding up slow people more than fast ones.
New map is a great help to slow people, so do away with titans on old map should really not inconvenience anyone but people using scripts other than TS/LW, as again new map advantages slow people more than fast ones, so evens out the field.
#143
fs_ragingwave
Posted 13 January 2012 - 23:34
And I use an unmodified TS. The beta map inconveniences me extremely. And why should slow people deserve help? The fast should get the kills, and the slow shouldn't. We're not here to eliminate the competitive aspect of titan hunting completely, are we? It's not like people who are no good at the arena deserve freebie wins... My internet isn't the fastest. So I make up for it by trying to be faster myself.
There's nothing wrong with an UNMODIFIED TS. Ban the modified versions, by all means.
#144
Posted 13 January 2012 - 23:36
actually I know of many average joes who have wanted to partake in titan hunting but don't know how to configure their computer or are afraid to break their computer. They are by no means in small guilds.To avoid quoting that huge block evilbry posted, I'll just reply here. It's well reasoned, and it gives a ton of valid reasoning, but take this into consideration. The average Joe is likely not involved in an active guild, in terms of titan hunting. With LW/TS banned, he'll have even less (or zero) chance at successfully hunting the titan himself, or with a few guildmates. It's an update that favors the guilds with many. If that's your valid opinion on an even playing field, so be it.
And I use an unmodified TS. The beta map inconveniences me extremely.
This change is a big win for players like that.
I get that you don't like the new map yourself, but think of the game at large.
#145
fs_ragingwave
Posted 13 January 2012 - 23:39
I didn't mean small guilds, I meantactually I know of many average joes who have wanted to partake in titan hunting but don't know how to configure their computer or are afraid to break their computer. They are by no means in small guilds.To avoid quoting that huge block evilbry posted, I'll just reply here. It's well reasoned, and it gives a ton of valid reasoning, but take this into consideration. The average Joe is likely not involved in an active guild, in terms of titan hunting. With LW/TS banned, he'll have even less (or zero) chance at successfully hunting the titan himself, or with a few guildmates. It's an update that favors the guilds with many. If that's your valid opinion on an even playing field, so be it.
And I use an unmodified TS. The beta map inconveniences me extremely.
This change is a big win for players like that.
I get that you don't like the new map yourself, but think of the game at large.
I can count the active titan hunting guilds on my fingers, judging by secures/significant amounts of kills, so I'd say that the majority do not reside in active titan hunting guilds.in an active guild, in terms of titan hunting.
#146
Posted 13 January 2012 - 23:47
I didn't mean small guilds, I meant
I can count the active titan hunting guilds on my fingers, judging by secures/significant amounts of kills, so I'd say that the majority do not reside in active titan hunting guilds.in an active guild, in terms of titan hunting.
I think you would be surprised. There are many guilds who titan hunt. There are few guilds who secure titans.
I haven't titan hunted since about September, and I am in a guild which does not appear in the top 5 lists. I do know, however that many will reconsider getting back out in the titan fields with the clampdown on scripts.
I have also been in guilds which have had high Titan hunting activities and there have always been players who have wanted to be a part of it, seeing their guildies out there, but have never been able to set their computers up correctly. They feel very disheartened that they can't help. I even know of people who have purchased new computers to try and be a part of the titan hunting experience but again get frustrated because they can't set the computer up to keep up with the joneses.
#147
fs_ragingwave
Posted 13 January 2012 - 23:51
I'm not all that knowledgeable regarding players with those conditions, so I'll refrain from making assumptions. All that I can say is... Let's look at the next titan that spawns, and see how it turns out. I'll be surprised if it's not a large guild securing and other guilds cleaning up afterwards, like it usually is.
I didn't mean small guilds, I meantI can count the active titan hunting guilds on my fingers, judging by secures/significant amounts of kills, so I'd say that the majority do not reside in active titan hunting guilds.in an active guild, in terms of titan hunting.
I think you would be surprised. There are many guilds who titan hunt. There are few guilds who secure titans.
I haven't titan hunted since about September, and I am in a guild which does not appear in the top 5 lists. I do know, however that many will reconsider getting back out in the titan fields with the clampdown on scripts.
I have also been in guilds which have had high Titan hunting activities and there have always been players who have wanted to be a part of it, seeing their guildies out there, but have never been able to set their computers up correctly. They feel very disheartened that they can't help. I even know of people who have purchased new computers to try and be a part of the titan hunting experience but again get frustrated because they can't set the computer up to keep up with the joneses.
#148
Posted 13 January 2012 - 23:55
If a large guild gets a bunch of their members out there, then good for them. They deserve the drop.
Don't you think it's more fitting for a guild with 10-15 players out there hunting the titan to win than a guild with 2-3 superhunters running scripts?
#149
fs_ragingwave
Posted 14 January 2012 - 00:09
That's a bit dramatic - nowadays, it's endgame when a guild gets 5 or more players out there. But my point is, there's zero chance now for players who are in less active titan hunting guilds. Before, if you were skilled at it, you could stand a chance with a guildmate or two. Superhunters earn their secures as well, by placing their effort in being the fastest they can be; placing the blame on the scripts for certain players being faster isn't necessarily valid. Now, speed is essentially useless. We've all become average Joes.Guilds using teamwork should be the ones who win. That's how it was at the start (Hi Evolutions!).
If a large guild gets a bunch of their members out there, then good for them. They deserve the drop.
Don't you think it's more fitting for a guild with 10-15 players out there hunting the titan to win than a guild with 2-3 superhunters running scripts?
#150
Posted 14 January 2012 - 00:19
That's a bit dramatic - nowadays, it's endgame when a guild gets 5 or more players out there. But my point is, there's zero chance now for players who are in less active titan hunting guilds. Before, if you were skilled at it, you could stand a chance with a guildmate or two. Superhunters earn their secures as well, by placing their effort in being the fastest they can be; placing the blame on the scripts for certain players being faster isn't necessarily valid.Guilds using teamwork should be the ones who win. That's how it was at the start (Hi Evolutions!).
If a large guild gets a bunch of their members out there, then good for them. They deserve the drop.
Don't you think it's more fitting for a guild with 10-15 players out there hunting the titan to win than a guild with 2-3 superhunters running scripts?
I don't think it's dramatic at all. I think it's very straight to the point. I have seen situations where guilds with 2-3 members have beaten 10-15 from WAL
This banning of scripts is a very positive first step in improving the game. Something people have been screaming out for, for a long time.
If we start seeing more guilds getting 4-5 players out there, it will be great. Think of the competition that could start. Isn't that what everyone wants with titan hunting? More competition because of how boring it is out there?
The thing is though you talk about superhunters putting effort in. If some wizard makes a script that goes around faster than anyone else, and kills faster than any one else, do they deserve it? (those who have titan hunted for a while will know what I mean with that question).
#151
fs_karlososos
Posted 14 January 2012 - 00:49
#152
Posted 14 January 2012 - 00:50
The thing is though you talk about superhunters putting effort in. If some wizard makes a script that goes around faster than anyone else, and kills faster than any one else, do they deserve it? (those who have titan hunted for a while will know what I mean with that question).
I AM THE GREAT AND POWERFUL YUUZHAN. HEY.. DONT LOOK BEHIND THE CURTAIN...
Can i be a wizard that deserves awesome stuff?
#153
Posted 14 January 2012 - 01:06
#154
Posted 14 January 2012 - 01:42
Yep, I want to keep scripts. Of course, take out all modified versions, by all means. I don't mean to defend any automated forms - after all, there's only one approved version of TitanStride. And that's the only one that should be permitted, without exception.
Well, how about you ask HCS to implement a TS in the code for all FS players? ,OP
#155
fs_auronxx
Posted 14 January 2012 - 02:45
I keep seeing this...what is this "integrated LightWalk" in FS now? Is it the point-and-click auto-walk in the new Beta map? I'm cornfused :?I think it is great scripts are being banned, however an un-modified Titanstride was no more automation then the now integrated LightWalk + an autorefreshed map.
#156
Posted 14 January 2012 - 02:48
On the old map, you can click multiple key movements and go more than one space per page reload without the need of any scripts.I keep seeing this...what is this "integrated LightWalk" in FS now? Is it the point-and-click auto-walk in the new Beta map? I'm cornfused :?
I think it is great scripts are being banned, however an un-modified Titanstride was no more automation then the now integrated LightWalk + an autorefreshed map.
#157
fs_ragingwave
Posted 14 January 2012 - 03:26
The thing is though you say superhunters as if they have access to something that others don't. TitanStride is publicly available. It's not like anyone has to do any work - it's been done already - just download, and use. The effort is where with TS, you have to actually time keystrokes, and accurately/efficiently get to your target. In turn, you're rewarded with better speed. By banning it, all Titan hunting will become, effectively, is a bunch of people clicking every few seconds and waiting for the little guy to run there, only to find that someone closer had taken the titan out.I don't think it's dramatic at all. I think it's very straight to the point. I have seen situations where guilds with 2-3 members have beaten 10-15 from WAL
again, I have been around the titan fields for a long time.
This banning of scripts is a very positive first step in improving the game. Something people have been screaming out for, for a long time.
If we start seeing more guilds getting 4-5 players out there, it will be great. Think of the competition that could start. Isn't that what everyone wants with titan hunting? More competition because of how boring it is out there?
The thing is though you talk about superhunters putting effort in. If some wizard makes a script that goes around faster than anyone else, and kills faster than any one else, do they deserve it? (those who have titan hunted for a while will know what I mean with that question).
That sounds fair to me. You want to use it, you enable the option. You don't want to use it, your choice, fine as well.Well, how about you ask HCS to implement a TS in the code for all FS players? ,OP
And I'm basing this purely off of my personal connection alone, but the Beta map lags to a point where the guy stops moving for quarter seconds at a time, and yet, I can run around the relic in circles with TitanStride with no issues. I don't see how Beta helps out the average Joe there, either.
#158
fs_auronxx
Posted 14 January 2012 - 03:27
Huh...I see that now. I must have missed that memo. :oops:On the old map, you can click multiple key movements and go more than one space per page reload without the need of any scripts.I keep seeing this...what is this "integrated LightWalk" in FS now? Is it the point-and-click auto-walk in the new Beta map? I'm cornfused :?
I think it is great scripts are being banned, however an un-modified Titanstride was no more automation then the now integrated LightWalk + an autorefreshed map.
As for everyone eventually being forced to use the Beta map, and the future of Titan-hunting in this map - that point-and-click auto-walk has GOT to go.
I can tell you that I've used Titan Stride, and (as an amateur Titan hunter) was able to be as fast moving around as the best of them. But it took PRACTICE. Being able to gauge what keys to press to get you to where that Titan is, and to get them EXACT and NOT over shoot, and to do this without ANY visual feedback (because I was faster than the screen reload) took quite some time to master, and I'm rather proud at my skill at it.
But if, now, all we have to do is zoom out, click on the Titan, and wait for our character to walk there...that's just BORING! And, more importantly...it takes NO SKILL.
Removing any requirement of skill doesn't "level the playing field"...it makes it a Harrison Bergeron field.
I understand that a guild with 2-3 hunters running scripts should not be able to out-kill a guild with 10 hunters present who don't use those scripts. (BTW, the auto-kill scripts - I've seen them, too - are the real criminals here.) But, with no scripts involved either way, a guild with 2 experienced hunters should be able to dance circles around a guild with 4-5 noob hunters. And that's how it should be.
If the point-and-click movement is used - thus removing skill from movement speed - and if, as I've been reading here, this maps and its movement is pretty much equal for all connection speeds, then the ONLY determining factor for securing Titans will be which guild brought the most hunters. No hope for us small-Titan-team guilds from ever getting an underdog win due to grit and skill!
#159
fs_ragingwave
Posted 14 January 2012 - 03:30
Beautifully said.Huh...I see that now. I must have missed that memo. :oops:
As for everyone eventually being forced to use the Beta map, and the future of Titan-hunting in this map - that point-and-click auto-walk has GOT to go.
I can tell you that I've used Titan Stride, and (as an amateur Titan hunter) was able to be as fast moving around as the best of them. But it took PRACTICE. Being able to gauge what keys to press to get you to where that Titan is, and to get them EXACT and NOT over shoot, and to do this without ANY visual feedback (because I was faster than the screen reload) took quite some time to master, and I'm rather proud at my skill at it.
But if, now, all we have to do is zoom out, click on the Titan, and wait for our character to walk there...that's just BORING! And, more importantly...it takes NO SKILL.
Removing any requirement of skill doesn't "level the playing field"...it makes it a Harrison Bergeron field.
I understand that a guild with 2-3 hunters running scripts should not be able to out-kill a guild with 10 hunters present who don't use those scripts. (BTW, the auto-kill scripts - I've seen them, too - are the real criminals here.) But, with no scripts involved either way, a guild with 2 experienced hunters should be able to dance circles around a guild with 4-5 noob hunters. And that's how it should be.
If the point-and-click movement is used - thus removing skill from movement speed - and if, as I've been reading here, this maps and its movement is pretty much equal for all connection speeds, then the ONLY determining factor for securing Titans will be which guild brought the most hunters. No hope for us small-Titan-team guilds from ever getting an underdog win due to grit and skill!
#160
fs_auronxx
Posted 14 January 2012 - 03:57
Thanks.Beautifully said.
All that said, I'm not saying that I disagree with HCS's decision to remove the scripts. I agree with it, in fact. All of our opinions of the pros and cons of the scripts are irrelevant - this is HCS's game, and they need to CONTROL it.
Like evilbry said earlier, the first question that needs to be asked is "what should Titan Hunting be like?" We, as a community, can give our suggestions, but ultimately, not only is it HCS's decision to set the goal of what the experience should be like, but it is HCS's responsibility to CREATE that experience. The experience should not RELY on scripts.
In other words, whatever tools there are to be used, they should come from HCS and be part of the game.
So, my suggestions to HCS as to "what should Titan Hunting be like" is that it SHOULD NOT have point-and-click movement, and that there SHOULD be reward for skill.
I also think that connection speed / geographical location / crazy computer optimization should, somehow, be irrelevant. (This is the only part of the playing field that could use some "leveling".)
Maybe the solution to that has already been found in the Beta map? I've heard it's fast, but I haven't messed with it much.
Or, maybe...the solution can be found in the Slaughterfests in Sigmastorm2. In the Slaughterfest arenas (which are live, deathmatch-style PvPs), you can only move one square per second. Being too fast is actually BAD, and the skill comes from timing your movements at exactly each 1-second mark.
This would make taking down a Titan quite a long affair...but is that necessarily a bad thing?
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