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#181 Dulcharn

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 08:55

but the idea of the tokens is to INCREASE arena participation is it not? If that is the idea of the tokens, then awarding the same people with tokens that are winning in the arena now would be counter productive if you ask me. If the winner and runner up are the only ones to win tokens then you might as well keep the arena as it is now. Adding token awards for each round would increase the number of people trying to get them. Which i am sure was the original purpose for the idea of the tokens in the first place.

 

I think the original idea of the tokens was to award the runner up in the finals, as this was a point where some players gave up playing.

 

But if you wanted to award everyone, then you could apply the following:

First round winner: 1

Second round or 4-man tourney finals: winner 2, runner up 1

Third round or 8-man tourney finals: winner 4, runner up 2

16-man tourney finals: winner 8, runner up 4

 

Alternatively, keep things as they are. But take out random wins by judges decision. And deflect isn't a fair move, as it thwarts the better setup most of the time.



#182 paingwin

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 09:39

but the idea of the tokens is to INCREASE arena participation is it not? If that is the idea of the tokens, then awarding the same people with tokens that are winning in the arena now would be counter productive if you ask me. If the winner and runner up are the only ones to win tokens then you might as well keep the arena as it is now. Adding token awards for each round would increase the number of people trying to get them. Which i am sure was the original purpose for the idea of the tokens in the first place.

 

 

I think the original idea of the tokens was to award the runner up in the finals, as this was a point where some players gave up playing.

 

But if you wanted to award everyone, then you could apply the following:

First round winner: 1

Second round or 4-man tourney finals: winner 2, runner up 1

Third round or 8-man tourney finals: winner 4, runner up 2

16-man tourney finals: winner 8, runner up 4

 

Alternatively, keep things as they are. But take out random wins by judges decision. And deflect isn't a fair move, as it thwarts the better setup most of the time.

like you said, SOME players quit if they lose finals. MOST quit way before that. Most players join arena after arena and lose early on very often and just give up. Give THOSE players a reason to keep joining and the arena goes from a 24-48 hour turnover to a 12 hour turnover. Maybe even better. This is just my opinion of course but awarding those same players that are winning in the arena now like i said seems to me to be very counter-productive to the possibilities of the token system.



#183 Dulcharn

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 10:20

like you said, SOME players quit if they lose finals. MOST quit way before that. Most players join arena after arena and lose early on very often and just give up. Give THOSE players a reason to keep joining and the arena goes from a 24-48 hour turnover to a 12 hour turnover. Maybe even better. This is just my opinion of course but awarding those same players that are winning in the arena now like i said seems to me to be very counter-productive to the possibilities of the token system.

 

To an extent. But if you start spoon feeding players, the challenges will be removed. After that the arena will die.

 

To be completely honest: the players who play frequently will win more often than the ones who don't.

Getting angry at the winners for winning shouldn't be a motivation for change. It should motivate THOSE players to improve and play more often.



#184 paingwin

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 14:25

To an extent. But if you start spoon feeding players, the challenges will be removed. After that the arena will die.

 

To be completely honest: the players who play frequently will win more often than the ones who don't.

Getting angry at the winners for winning shouldn't be a motivation for change. It should motivate THOSE players to improve and play more often.

I don't see how the challenges would be removed. Your still going to have to play against other people, your still going to have to figure out how to beat their setups, your still going to have to beat their moves. I mean it's the same old arena, just now there is a small amount of incentive to play in it. and with Shindraks idea for item cost in tokens, you know 30 tokens for a BM300 potion for example, those players that are being "spoon fed" are going to have to enter how many arenas? 20, 30, maybe even 40 to get an item that people get now for 1? that to me doesn't sound like it is getting any easier.



#185 Dulcharn

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 14:47

I don't see how the challenges would be removed. Your still going to have to play against other people, your still going to have to figure out how to beat their setups, your still going to have to beat their moves. I mean it's the same old arena, just now there is a small amount of incentive to play in it. and with Shindraks idea for item cost in tokens, you know 30 tokens for a BM300 potion for example, those players that are being "spoon fed" are going to have to enter how many arenas? 20, 30, maybe even 40 to get an item that people get now for 1? that to me doesn't sound like it is getting any easier.

 

challenge: get to the finals and win.

when tokens are given to first round achievers, then challenge is removed.

 

challenge: create good setups

when tokens are given to first round achievers, then you don't really need good setups.

 

challenge: understand how to play opponents

when tokens are given to first round achievers, then you can count on a little luck that you get an easy opponent

 

;)



#186 paingwin

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 10:18

challenge: get to the finals and win.

when tokens are given to first round achievers, then challenge is removed.

 

challenge: create good setups

when tokens are given to first round achievers, then you don't really need good setups.

 

challenge: understand how to play opponents

when tokens are given to first round achievers, then you can count on a little luck that you get an easy opponent

 

;)

well sadly, I feel as if this conversation is going nowhere. The original idea behind the tokens was to increase participation in the arena. You are not going to accomplish that by only giving the tokens to those that are winning most every arena now. You are simply just changing the way in which those people are gaining awards. As the arena is now, the small group of people that dominate the arena gain a "prize" for most every arena. Those that are losing in the finals are gaining awards when they get into a final that isnt against one of the 15-20ish arena gurus, so they are still getting "prizes". The people you want to stay in the arena and keep trying are those that lose in the first or second round every time. There are PLENTY of players that fit that group, people who constantly lose and just quit, because they aren't in a guild with every piece of gear guild tagged or can't afford to buy there own gear. THOSE are the ones you want to keep trying, the ones that have it down don't need to try, they are going to be there anyway.

 

But, since reason keeps falling on deaf ears, and those on top are continually trying to solidify there top standings, I give up. Not going to post any more ideas to help the game, as people think giving the little guy a fighting chance is going to cut into their own profits.



#187 dragon1234

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 17:09

challenge: get to the finals and win.
when tokens are given to first round achievers, then challenge is removed.

challenge: create good setups
when tokens are given to first round achievers, then you don't really need good setups.

challenge: understand how to play opponents
when tokens are given to first round achievers, then you can count on a little luck that you get an easy opponent

;)

If the amount of Token required for items are high enough, the cost of joining all those tourneys just to collect tokens will be more than the profits made from selling the items. That mean that there is incentive for people to create good set ups to try and win tourneys. If they do that then theyll have to understand mechanics and opponents. Since the goal is to try and increase participations in the tourney, this mean that if it does happen, less tourney join cost decay will happen keeping the price of tokens high.

On a side note can we get more low gold arenas? they are the best movers in the arenas and would really help the speed of it along. Lots more 50-200k tourneys.

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#188 Dulcharn

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 17:46

well sadly, I feel as if this conversation is going nowhere. The original idea behind the tokens was to increase participation in the arena. You are not going to accomplish that by only giving the tokens to those that are winning most every arena now. You are simply just changing the way in which those people are gaining awards. As the arena is now, the small group of people that dominate the arena gain a "prize" for most every arena. Those that are losing in the finals are gaining awards when they get into a final that isnt against one of the 15-20ish arena gurus, so they are still getting "prizes". The people you want to stay in the arena and keep trying are those that lose in the first or second round every time. There are PLENTY of players that fit that group, people who constantly lose and just quit, because they aren't in a guild with every piece of gear guild tagged or can't afford to buy there own gear. THOSE are the ones you want to keep trying, the ones that have it down don't need to try, they are going to be there anyway.

 

But, since reason keeps falling on deaf ears, and those on top are continually trying to solidify there top standings, I give up. Not going to post any more ideas to help the game, as people think giving the little guy a fighting chance is going to cut into their own profits.

 

I also think participation is crucial. I also think helping the little guy along is necessary too. Shindrak's idea will do both.

Honestly, the wins I get aren't much profit and at a minimum help me join tourneys. I lose 80% of what I join. I still participate.

 

I'm also going to stop posting in arena threads, as the conversation keeps going in circles and never stays on topic.

 

If you want to chat about things further, PM me in game.



#189 yotwehc

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 22:56

Why not make it like titan hunting? Everyone gets a token for participating. you get more based on each round. maybe 1-4-8-16 or something like that? Sure, you could brute force and win some tokens naked but wouldn't that really up participation :-p



#190 shindrak

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 23:06

Why not make it like titan hunting? Everyone gets a token for participating. you get more based on each round. maybe 1-4-8-16 or something like that? Sure, you could brute force and win some tokens naked but wouldn't that really up participation :-p

Titans aspects changes happened because titan hunting was unfair slow connection players...

Arena has nothing to do with connection ... Its just about skill,luck and not being lazy to figure out how to cover most possibilities to win.

 

You just asking for something requires 0 effort

 

 

 

I suggest for HC's to make ingame poll for original tkp idea and skip all this arguing about something might not happen as i see HC's has low responsive in this active thread



#191 yotwehc

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 23:13

Titans aspects changes happened because titan hunting was unfair slow connection players...

Arena has nothing to do with connection ... Its just about skill,luck and not being lazy to figure out how to cover most possibilities to win.

 

You just asking for something requires 0 effort

So although you want more participation, you don't want lazy participants?... and getting 1 token vs 16 for the winner? Even titan hunting winners don't get that kind of ratio of benefit vs the worst titan hunters.

 

btw, i tried again and I give up. I'm online all the time but I guess I'm too "lazy" to figure stuff out... what's a good number? 100 consecutive losses?



#192 watagashi

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 23:23

I keep up with this and am still undecided on all the options thrown out,,and talk comparing it to titans brought this to mind because as titans are the drop for the guild that secured the other places still get TKP that eventually build up enough to buy a drop.

 

I do not think tokens are a very good idea as arena was started and based on a winner take all fight and prizes reflect that. Keep in mind theres a lot of nice gear that can be made from arena items and rotation of these items is what will bring the activity.

 

On the other hand it sux to lose in the last round especially to judges coin flip so something by way of prizes for 1st and 2nd would not hurt at all. Perhaps just add a new set of arenas that gives 2 prizes and list both in the start page. ( great idea here,,, im no expert but seems to me and the limited ones I do that prize ones fill WAY faster than gold ones,,,perhaps a prize for 1st and gold for 2nd??)

 

But finally I want to throw out something,,,, how about you get a token for every arena entered and perhaps a couple for 2nd and 1st with these being available to spend in an arena store where players can buy current or even better older arena items this way??

A couple ways this could work

1 just go straight tokens for arena and the store sells the items for a pretty high cost, looking at carved bone pipe on AH right now and going for around 15-18 FSP and the arena is 5k to join. Say 200 tokens to buy a pipe in the token store? The cows can figure better than I how much they want to get before giving a item so just a suggested price to give the jist of the idea. 

2 take a page from SS2 and create a way for someone to take a item they dont need and couple tokens to transmute toa comparable item perhaps even into ones that arent in current rotation.

 

I think these 2 ways could add a bit more to arena and more activity but at the same time not give too much for something thats working ok now but not very active.



#193 yodamus

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 15:03

bump..before it disappears from view again..please cows give us an idea about this..thanks



#194 thisple

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 17:17

I would love to see a token system implemented in the Arena.  I tend to agree with Shin's views, and I would very much like the cows to consider mooo-ving forward :-)



#195 Pardoux

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 20:59

I think everyone is agreed that something needs to change in the Arena - the differences are in HOW that change is made.

 

Personally, I feel that a token system, for the most part, will only reward those that are already at the top of their game in the arena and thus, will do nothing to encourage new activity ... 


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#196 yodamus

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 18:39

bump..before this idea gets lost in the shuffle..idea greatly needed for arena..arena is so slow..maybe composing will help..but this idea would help even more...



#197 raist007

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 14:48

This is only a suggestion that may help make the tokens work...but maybe scale the amount of tokens won by a factor based on the number of wins (ie, what medal they have)?  What if the factor was something like this (rounded up):

 

No medal = tokens x 2

Bronze = tokens x 1.5

Silver = tokens x 1.25

Gold = tokens

Crystal = tokens x .75

Ruby = tokens x .5

Diamond = tokens x .25

 

So if a silver arena player 'won' 10 tokens by being runner-up, they would actually receive (10*1.25) = 13 tokens.  A seasoned veteran Crystal player winning the same 10 tokens as runner-up would receive (10*.75) = 8 tokens.  What this would do is allow those new to the arena (or those without quite as much experience) to receive a few more tokens than those who are dominating the arena.  This isn't intended to 'penalize' arena veterans as much as it is to prevent the 'exploitation' of tokens that many have mentioned in this thread. 

 

Hopefully we can hear something from the cows soon whether or not arena changes are in consideration for being added to the pipeline....



#198 j3k

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 23:26

so much dust in this thread better bump


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#199 yghorbeviahn

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 01:52

Before talking about how  the token system will work it's we define a list of possible prize for them.

Recipes/Resources?
Potions?

After figuring  a prize we can decide how the tokens should be distributed, I think.



#200 BigGrim

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 10:52

I'd assume we'd keep the items you can win now and just continue to fold them into new Arena only sets and potions?




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