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#141 Dulcharn

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 01:00

Because, the opening post on the thread suggests :-

 

There will be 2 ways to collect tokens 
1.Lose final you obtain 1 token
2.Every 10 tourneys reaching semi final you obtain 1 token

 

From a quick re-read through the thread I've seen no mention of gaining tokens for passing the first round, just the two points listed above. Just scanned again, and OK, I saw Hoof's comment about that this time through.

 

What I still fail to see is why the arena now needs 3 tiers of reward ?

 

1. Win in the first round, get a token

2. Lose the final, get a token (or 10, from Hoofs suggestion)

3. Win the final and get the original reward.

 

Will it increase activity ? - probably. Will it give even more reward to the top players ? - definately.

 

Will a 3 tier ladder (amateur, semi-pro and pro) increase activity ? - probably. Will that reward the top players more than currently ? - No.

 

I think the 1 token for the runner up is a good idea. And maybe 2 tokens for the winner.

To me it doesn't make sense to award a player for passing the first round though.

 

Activity will be increased. Yes. But I think your perception of what constitutes top players is somewhat skewed.

Let me explain.

There are different ranges of tournaments where some excell more than others, because they have been active in that range for a while. I remember Eaus being the specialist in the lvl 60 tourneys, and no one could beat him. But match him up against players playing in the lvl 400 range and he'd fail terribly. Everyone has their favourite and preferred level range. Players focus on different gear and understand habits of their opponents better. So the top players are plentiful and each range has their challenges. The complexities of the arena are more intricate than you make it out to be. There are winners because a portion of the community loves playing the arena. But the winners are varied, and not always the same. From an outsider viepoint it may look differently, but if you actually play intensely for a few weeks you'll get to know the variety of players winning, learning, improving, developing, strategising. I have a lot of respect for players who persist in any aspect of the game - those players deserve to be awarded. Take it away form them and you'll send the game to the grave.



#142 Pardoux

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 01:26

I think the 1 token for the runner up is a good idea. And maybe 2 tokens for the winner.

To me it doesn't make sense to award a player for passing the first round though.

 

Activity will be increased. Yes. But I think your perception of what constitutes top players is somewhat skewed.

Let me explain.

There are different ranges of tournaments where some excell more than others, because they have been active in that range for a while. I remember Eaus being the specialist in the lvl 60 tourneys, and no one could beat him. But match him up against players playing in the lvl 400 range and he'd fail terribly. Everyone has their favourite and preferred level range. Players focus on different gear and understand habits of their opponents better. So the top players are plentiful and each range has their challenges. The complexities of the arena are more intricate than you make it out to be. There are winners because a portion of the community loves playing the arena. But the winners are varied, and not always the same. From an outsider viepoint it may look differently, but if you actually play intensely for a few weeks you'll get to know the variety of players winning, learning, improving, developing, strategising. I have a lot of respect for players who persist in any aspect of the game - those players deserve to be awarded. Take it away form them and you'll send the game to the grave.

 

Up to a point, I can agree with you there. 

 

But.

 

One, the (admittedly very small survey) I did of 50 non-move arenas (which were across quite a few different levels) were involving a lot of the same players ...

 

Two, no-one is taking anything away from anyone with either suggestion. Both have the same desired effect, more activity. One just suggests more rewards and one suggests tiers to allow an easier learning curve. Yes, I said it, an EASIER learning curve. Not a win button.  If folk can get into the arena & learn more easily, then ultimately more folk will stick around - surely ?


Homer : Marge, don't discourage the boy. Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals .. except the weasel.

 

Eddie Izzard : The National Rifle Association say that guns don't kill people, people do. But I think the gun helps, you know ? I think it helps. I think just standing there going "BANG" - that's not going to kill too many people, is it ?

 

I don't mean to sound pessimistic, but it seems that everything I eat lately turns to poo ...


#143 gomezkilla

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 01:30

The tiered approach I think will pay off in the long run, but a lot of players are more focused on the present so they may not see the good in it.

 

Token approach is more a deal like RP and Ladder, once its been out a while, it will lose activity the same way as GvG and the ladder have.



#144 Dulcharn

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 01:37

Up to a point, I can agree with you there. 

 

But.

 

One, the (admittedly very small survey) I did of 50 non-move arenas (which were across quite a few different levels) were involving a lot of the same players ...

 

Two, no-one is taking anything away from anyone with either suggestion. Both have the same desired effect, more activity. One just suggests more rewards and one suggests tiers to allow an easier learning curve. Yes, I said it, an EASIER learning curve. Not a win button.  If folk can get into the arena & learn more easily, then ultimately more folk will stick around - surely ?

 

One.

A large portion of the arena players are indeed players who return to play the tournaments. It's inevitable that a good deal of this portion will win tournaments. By getting more incentive to participate is good.

 

Two.

The easier learning curves have been implemented already. The sea of tourneys beyond that is rightfully more challenging.

 

The negative of the tiered approach you suggested will cage groups together and kill off the already little enthusiasm there is in the arena today. In fact you'll have a worse outcome in the tiered idea, because of having the same players go up against each other who know each of their styles. If you have a sea of players, there's more unexpected and varied styles.

So I really think that the token idea will enliven the arena more.



#145 Pardoux

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 01:40

So I really think that the token idea will enliven the arena more.

 

Then we'll just have to agree to disagree ... 


Homer : Marge, don't discourage the boy. Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals .. except the weasel.

 

Eddie Izzard : The National Rifle Association say that guns don't kill people, people do. But I think the gun helps, you know ? I think it helps. I think just standing there going "BANG" - that's not going to kill too many people, is it ?

 

I don't mean to sound pessimistic, but it seems that everything I eat lately turns to poo ...


#146 Dulcharn

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 01:41

Then we'll just have to agree to disagree ... 

 

Fine.



#147 paingwin

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 07:19

Tell me WHY it will slow more ... I've already explained why I think otherwise.

i really hate to say it, and be the jerk, but what the hell it's who i am. You notice that the only people that don't want any kind of separation in the arena are the ones that win over and over and over. I have joined over 50+ arenas in the last 2 months, and have won maybe 5. Yes, i keep losing to the same people, over and over and over, and the ones that win the arenas are the players with 500+ wins joining them. I have all the best gear for my levels, a notebook FULL of stat calculations, 5-7 different sets for each of the level ranges i play in, and yet there you go. It wouldnt slow down anymore than it is right now, it will just take easy wins against noob arena players away from those that run the arenas.

 

And before one of the "seasoned" arena players chimes in with a "well we had to learn the hard way", consider this, your right and i don't take that away from you. BUT, when you were learning the arena, EVERYONE was learning it, as time goes on, new people are coming into the game and can't hope to compete with someone who has been doing it for 3 years. I understand that some players are just trying to protect their monopoly, but enough is enough. 



#148 Dulcharn

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 07:46

i really hate to say it, and be the jerk, but what the hell it's who i am. You notice that the only people that don't want any kind of separation in the arena are the ones that win over and over and over. I have joined over 50+ arenas in the last 2 months, and have won maybe 5. Yes, i keep losing to the same people, over and over and over, and the ones that win the arenas are the players with 500+ wins joining them. I have all the best gear for my levels, a notebook FULL of stat calculations, 5-7 different sets for each of the level ranges i play in, and yet there you go. It wouldnt slow down anymore than it is right now, it will just take easy wins against noob arena players away from those that run the arenas.

 

And before one of the "seasoned" arena players chimes in with a "well we had to learn the hard way", consider this, your right and i don't take that away from you. BUT, when you were learning the arena, EVERYONE was learning it, as time goes on, new people are coming into the game and can't hope to compete with someone who has been doing it for 3 years. I understand that some players are just trying to protect their monopoly, but enough is enough. 

 

People who have 500+ wins actually understand the arena. Shin has the best intention for the health of the game. He plays, because he enjoys the mental challenge, and not because he wants to win more stuff.

I don't know about any other frequent arena player, but I don't have all the things you summed up. I don't have a full notebook of stat calculations. I don't use a spreadsheet either. I just use my noodles, and some experienced guess work.

 

On your second point. I was confronted with the same situation in 2009 when I decided to try out the arena - everyone was vastly better than me and it was frustrating that others understood the arena better than me. I lost tons and won very few. I persisted. Eventually, I studied the behaviour of my opponents. I started to win a few and about the time I got my gold medal, I understood gear combos much better. I don't think I posted anything in the forum in those days.

 

If your frustration is with players who are better than you, than you can improve that.

If you're actually concerned with the health of the arena and the game, than shindrak has a solution for you.

 

To speed up the slowness, both noob and guru will benfit. Why? See arena tip below.

 

Arena tip:

1. Enter a tourney at your preferred level range. 

2. Analyse the results.

3. Did you miss? Increase your attack.

4. Did you hit with 1 damage? Increase your damage.

5. Did you miss and hit with 1 damage? It might mean you have to rethink your setup entirely, or add a Spin Attack.

6. Repeat this each time. The sooner you get the results, the sooner you can enter other arenas with improved results.

 

note: your opponents are doing the same, so you'll need to stay focused!

Good luck!



#149 gomezkilla

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 14:23

 I have all the best gear for my levels, a notebook FULL of stat calculations, 5-7 different sets for each of the level ranges i play in, and yet there you go. It wouldnt slow down anymore than it is right now, it will just take easy wins against noob arena players away from those that run the arenas.

 

You may have all the best gear for your levels, but are you using it properly? Use Dulcharn's process, that's how I do it whenever I do the arena.



#150 shindrak

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 20:25

Again this suggestion to stop players from quitting arena not just bring new ones.

 

Can't wait to see HC's listen for players who isn't that active in this aspect or any aspect as much as they are in forum!



#151 Dulcharn

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 02:28

Hrm. Looking at it, the idea certainly has merit. I think a token for the loser of the final is okay, no need for the winner as they just won the event. A token for every 10+ (or whatever) tournaments where you get past the first round is a fairly interesting idea. I think I'll talk with the guys about this. See what they think.

 

- The winner gets the reward. The runner up a token. But depending on how the token is used, the winner could get the short straw if he/she won a crappy reward.

- A token for x amount of first round battle wins could be interesting. But I'd suggest the item that is purchased with the tokens would cost a lot in proportion.

 

For instance: new important item costs 150 tokens. Higher level item could cost 250 tokens.

 

16-man tourney: winner gets 4 tokens, runner up gets 2 tokens

8-man tourney: winner gets 2 tokens, runner up gets 1 token

4-man tourney: winner gets 1 token, runner up 0.



#152 BigGrim

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 09:30

Once again, a bunch of off-topic trolling and name calling has been removed. Play nice or the offenders will have their privileges revoked.

#153 paingwin

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 10:10

You may have all the best gear for your levels, but are you using it properly? Use Dulcharn's process, that's how I do it whenever I do the arena.

i am using his process, before he said anything about it. Hence the notebook i have of arenas joined, stats used during, and the results of the tourney. What i am trying to say is that there is a large number of people that dont learn that way. for some people an environment free of all the big hitters in the game is where they would learn best. plus to learn the way i am involves tons and tons of gear, gold, and commitment. there arent alot of noobs in the game with tons of resources.



#154 paingwin

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 10:13

Again this suggestion to stop players from quitting arena not just bring new ones.

 

Can't wait to see HC's listen for players who isn't that active in this aspect or any aspect as much as they are in forum!

and i am one of the biggest voices in this thread with opposition to it. I am active in the arena, VERY active as i play EVERY arena from lvls 1-99. I may have just started playing it heavily but i assure you i am alot more active in the arena then most at this point. i want that shiny medal, bronze down, only 400000000 more losses to go to get my silver. my point is the idea of giving further rewards will only keep players interested for a short time as in every other aspect of the game. What is needed is some way for noobs to learn at their own pace what works and what doesnt. that means separation from the arena all-stars and the NOVICE section isnt that area i am sorry to say.



#155 paingwin

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 10:16

- The winner gets the reward. The runner up a token. But depending on how the token is used, the winner could get the short straw if he/she won a crappy reward.

- A token for x amount of first round battle wins could be interesting. But I'd suggest the item that is purchased with the tokens would cost a lot in proportion.

 

For instance: new important item costs 150 tokens. Higher level item could cost 250 tokens.

 

16-man tourney: winner gets 4 tokens, runner up gets 2 tokens

8-man tourney: winner gets 2 tokens, runner up gets 1 token

4-man tourney: winner gets 1 token, runner up 0.

the only way i can agree with this is if your taking rewards from the arena altogether, and making them gained through buying them with tokens. if that is not the case then the winner of a tourney should not get any tokens as they have already won the arena.



#156 gomezkilla

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 13:17

the only way i can agree with this is if your taking rewards from the arena altogether, and making them gained through buying them with tokens. if that is not the case then the winner of a tourney should not get any tokens as they have already won the arena.

Agreed. Though even with that implemented, the activity boost that is being sought by this idea will only last a short period of time.



#157 raist007

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 19:57

I believe I've said it before, but here is why I think the token system should be implemented:  Much of the equipment necessary to have some of the best setups REQUIRE arena prizes in order to make them.  Not everyone belongs to the guilds that have ALL of the gear necessary to compete in arena. This is the problem for players like myself.  I scour the wiki and guide pages looking for the best setup and gear combos available within a certain range.  Inevitably, I find that that at LEAST one of the sets I do not have because I need 3-4+ arena prizes (or pvp token rewards) in order to make the items needed.  And, of course, the separate items necessary are more more expensive than buying the set outright.  And this may not sound like a big deal, but with arena it's never just 1 set that is needed.  The more level ranges you play in, the more varied your setups and the more and more fsp you spend.  It's not a problem if you have all the money in the world to donate, but I do not. 

 

The token system provides a possible solution to this situation, as I know I am not the ONLY player who doesn't have the fsp to afford all the arena prizes/gear necessary to be able to truly compete in arena.  Even with non-ideal setups, I would have the ability to earn tokens and eventually buy what is needed to make the items needed.  All the while, i could be learning about the setups/moves appropriate to that level range so that by the time i have the 'right' gear from the arena tokens, I'd then have a better chance at competing with the 'pros'.

 

My question to the nay-sayers to the arena token suggestion is this:  What do you have to lose by implementing this feature?  If you win tons of arenas, that isn't going to change.  And, for the many events you do lose (yes, I know everybody loses more arenas than they win) you will still gain benefit from the tokens.  And, if for some reason all prizes get substituted for tokens, then you will still be winning far more tokens than anyone else and will be able to buy whatever rewards you want - probably the ones that sell for the most in the AH.  Even if the activity in arena is only increased for a short time, what is so wrong with that?  At least there WILL be some increased activity.  For those saying it will kill arena, tell me, have you even looked at how long it takes for many of the arenas to begin?  Yes, starting fees on arena need an overhaul - hopefully the cows can look at modifying those as well.  But still it would be better to have a few fresh faces entering the same level range tourneys rather than seeing the same 8 people waiting for the decay to hit 500gold and then all entering...wouldn't it?



#158 Pardoux

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 21:22

My question to the nay-sayers to the arena token suggestion is this:  What do you have to lose by implementing this feature?  If you win tons of arenas, that isn't going to change.  And, for the many events you do lose (yes, I know everybody loses more arenas than they win) you will still gain benefit from the tokens.  And, if for some reason all prizes get substituted for tokens, then you will still be winning far more tokens than anyone else and will be able to buy whatever rewards you want - probably the ones that sell for the most in the AH.  

 

My problem with the token system is that there are a main core of players that, between them, win the majority of the arenas ( majority, just to clear it up, means >50%) - and, in a lot of other cases, are losing finalists. This token system, if implemented on a "winner gets some, losing finalist gets some and other participants maybe get some" format benefits THEM greatly. It may well benefit other arena players too, but THEY will be the ultimate beneficiaries because of their sheer number of victories and losing finals. 

 

I also think that it's called the PvP arena is it not ? - never heard of a losing gladiator getting a prize, have you ? - if he was especially good, he used to get to stay alive, but that was about it.

 

I want more arena activity - I just don't think rewarding the top players even more is the way to do it.


Homer : Marge, don't discourage the boy. Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals .. except the weasel.

 

Eddie Izzard : The National Rifle Association say that guns don't kill people, people do. But I think the gun helps, you know ? I think it helps. I think just standing there going "BANG" - that's not going to kill too many people, is it ?

 

I don't mean to sound pessimistic, but it seems that everything I eat lately turns to poo ...


#159 raist007

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 21:35

I get what you are saying Pardoux, but what would be the problem with the 'majority' getting token?  They could use the tokens as they see fit just as anyone else would.  If it becomes an issue, there could be a restriction on how many tokens, if any, could be awarded based on your wins/medal ranking (ie, a silver medal player could only win 5 tokens for losing in final, gold only 2, and crystal medal and up 0....this is just an example)...or you could simply make it to where after 1 player wins the 10 tokens for losing in final round, they have a 'cooldown' period of say 5-10 tourneys before they are eligible to win the tokens as final round loser again (similar to the titan cooldown period after a guild has won the epic outright).   This would prevent token abuse from the 'arena masters' and yet still allow the arena 'noobs' and 'learners' to still get their tokens.

 

As for your gladiator example and 'real pvp', it's a joke....real gladiators only lost once...ever :P 

 

So let me ask, if a cooldown period for high-ranking arena players (ie, silver medal and up) were applied to tokens, would this be acceptable?



#160 gomezkilla

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 22:52

Even if the activity in arena is only increased for a short time, what is so wrong with that?  At least there WILL be some increased activity.

Well, if the activity is boosted for a short time.. guess what? We'll be back to where we are right now! All that effort for nothing.




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