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Game balance. Accuracy\Haste\Mana


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#1 ExtremelyPoliteGuy

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 12:54

I am to wright some graphomany here explaining basics of current balance issues once and for all. So there wont be any need replying other topics, getting girlie cries in response.

Lets start with historical overview.

Following links below you can find Previous stats allocation BEFORE accuracy talents thing was added.

http://forums.huntedcow.com/index.php?showtopic=56791&hl=accuracy#entry792575

As you can see people WERE choosing between HASTE+DAMAGE vs CRIT+HIT CHANCE they had a clear understanding, that going FULL class stat will result in some 85 or less hit chance. At least they were thinking of it.

Now we have all classes close to 100 and over hit chance, just spending some 3 talents in it. Quite logical that there is no need to put in focus, as well as no need to put in mana (was discussed a few times). So people go FULL class stat and they are right. Its kind of natural if you have no choice. And there is NO CHOISE at all. The current graphomany onset is to be divided into 2 parts:

 -Haste+Accuracy issue (as they have same origin and nature)

-Mana issue

1. Haste and Accuracy

Well, misunderstanding of original class balance leads to something like this: http://forums.huntedcow.com/index.php?s=e9ae41906776b66ccbd8f2a054b67e4f&showtopic=59000

To prevent ridiculous suggestions like “lets make all haste have a cap of 66%”, ruining all, needed to work on, but still a balance we have now, yes it horrible, but that’s the core to work with.

The original class balance at level 50:

Tank, - Most HP, Most def, 30+ default block + blocking\redusing damage skills  LOW HASTE

Wrrior, Moderate HP, Moderate armor, HUGE mass damage, Enormous crit (95% cap actually with final talent) LESS THAN MODERATE HASTE

Assassin lesser HP, Lesser armor, Tactical skills, HUGE 1on1 damage, huge mass damage, high crit(95), MODERATE HASTE

Ranger lesser HP, lesser armor, Enormous 1on1 damage, high crit (95), MODERATE HASTE

Mage least HP, weak armor, ENORMOUS 1on1 damage (is it now?) heals, HIGHEST HASTE!

Prophet least HP, weak armor, moderate 1on1 damage (is it?) Highest heals, LESS THAN HIGHEST BUT MORE THAN MODERATE HASTE

Anything to disagree with?

Ok… now a very very 100% simple question… what happens if all hastes are to be caped at 66%? Yep.. crap happens ))) Why would one suggest that? Perhaps only God knows…

The whole model did work well BEFORE bugged vanities and Accuracy talents. Vanities let you go over 100 haste and spam things, but as described on forum even talent spamming does not save from PVP disbalance – but that’s a topic for later graphomany onset. Still this PVP experience shows that “talent spamming” has nothing to do with PVP advantage.

Possible solution: There is a 95% critical hit cap already.

 90% haste cap seems fair enough. At the same time the accuracy talents should be removed. Removed  at ALL. Why?

  1. There always must be a choice. Since its Eldevin’s main idea – I wonder who did decide to ruin it by adding Accuracy Talents. One is to choose between Haste+Damage and Crit+Hit chance. By the way, if you guys read forum – I wish to use this chance to suggest tuning crit hit ratio to at least 1.7, as it its current state it’s a long-term overall damage reducer
  2. Longer PVP. What kind of PVP is PVP where people have 100% hit chance on each other? And Enormous damage classes (Ranger+Mage) have 100+ hit chance? I suggest removing Accuracy talents from Mages Rangers and Assasins trees, leaving some minor for Templar and Warrior.
  3. Overall damage reduction from all people going to Focus is simply balanced by LOWing all mobs HP by 5-7%. Guess its just a matter of pressing a few buttons in game options.

 

So what do we have so far: Haste 90 cap, No accuracy Talents for hasted classes, World creeps HP reduced by 5-7%,- if not: crit damage ratio 1.7

 

For further class balance:

Guess ill make separate readable topic for PVP balance(which is at around 0 progress), since Talents feedback topic seems dead and uninhabited.

 

2. Mana.

All the attempts to solve mana issue were weak. People keep spamming talents, not putting any stats in Energy at all. Now there is no choice again. What one gets having points IN mana compared to one having none? Nothing much. N-O-T-H-I-N-G.

Potion nerf did show that there is an OVERMANA issue. People keep slaying same level bosses, not caring about mana… The game is whole Pink – a mean any dumbass wins it. Any 6 y.o. kid can get in, leaving some magic pony game and Win, being among all the cool guys. Seems like am going for gam difficulty again… but it’s a separate topic. As for mana:

There is no current difference between putting PTS in Enegry and putting all in class stats being superhasty 100% hit chance guy. Cutting potion use does not help. OK. There is another way.

 

  1. All mana potions effects are to be cut at least by 90%
  2. Each natural (the one you gain leveling)point in ENERGY gives you BONUS using mana potions as well as bonus regen – having 0 pts in basic energy gives you -90% mana of current state upon use. The ratio is to be set according to idea of gaining current mana gain level at around +100\ + 80 in basic Energy
  3. Reduce potion use limit – let ppl drink and craft craft and drink. Let them spend ages crafting and buying if they don’t ant to put in Energy.

Fair. One always have a choice to put in Energy, gaining satisfactory mana gain level or to keep on drinking tons of pots.

Same thing for HP.

What that cruel and unpopular solution brings in? – More tactics and planning, longer PVPas well as some Players thinking of using BASIC ATTACK.

The whole MANA problem and further PVP\PVE balance has a very small root in simple fact that Basic attack is ******* compared to skills. People are USED to spam skills. That’s why mass thinking is like: “oh yeah… there is a mana problem” WHILE there is an OVERMANA problem.

Let bots use good basic attack and they wont moan for mana – Simle. Bringing basic attack damage up to some 90% current DPS will dramaticall change the PVP\PVE profile. The standart 6y.o. kid, representing an average Eldevin tester profile, will find out that he doest need to click ALL the buttons anymore to put a mob douwn, using basic attack, does the trick… whats the rush in using mana pool?

If you cut mana gain and give nothing instead – you receive primitive moans. And its natural – people are all overskilled. Noone uses basic attacks since they are crappy. Making basic attack a usable, frequently used thing compensates the mana issue – one has a choice do deal some 90% DPS, regaining mana with talents on use skills, ending up having NO MANA in 10 seconds.

Furthermore the basic attack boost solution for mana issue also brings in some really good options for tuning ************** talents we have all over the Talent trees... lets call them useless. All the useless talents can be tuned to Basic attack improving ones, motivating people to put points in  and use it frequently, forgetting the mana issue in its current state and putting in Energy as many stats as needed to use their COMBO skills sets.

 

Following that ideological line I’d even cut the mana POOL itself. Limiting the fast PVP, then a few sets of skills do the trick.

 

If such mana changes are to take place, then mobs HP are to be cut by another 10% compensating the loss in kills per minute ratio reduction.

 

This post if for HCS. Please close it after reading – just don’t want any girlie stuff here


Edited by ExtremelyPoliteGuy, 15 October 2013 - 15:44.

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Man.... its boring!!!!  Lets do some everyday TEAM PVP

 


#2 grimnok

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 14:36

TLDR version:

There's almost no reason to put any points in Energy or Focus (which I agree with, if OP meant that).



#3 redsmokeboy

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 20:05

As War / Archer still add point in Foucs but never any point's in Engery as enegrry gain not worth point's used! foucse minal but over is well worth point's add on top of skill's so forth!

 

Thought only worth for 2 Class Healer / Mage add point's in energy maxinze skill usage! hyberded class has some factor as well!

 

Tank Class Hp / Mele / some point in Foucse minal bump in dmg to week sate of pure! Vs going Hybered War or Sin !

 

At same time Energy is not used, Point used - Compared Mana gained!

 

Most game's played tend have Cap's in place for in blance issue! Genraly around 75% Cap On all!

Block Haste Crit So forth! Thought per that there be no Cap in place! thought try and work out blance mean's of skill's!


Edited by redsmokeboy, 15 October 2013 - 20:10.

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#4 Majjer

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 01:37

imbalanced stat pts assignment because of:

 

* psychological effect - assigning to melee / sorc / ranged (visibly) increases 3 stats while assigning to focus just 2 and assigning to hp or mana visibly changes only 1 stat (not everyone does math and assigns pts by their feelings). health/energy/focus should be promoted more (for example adding a button when leveling up to show what would be players stats when lvl 50 while keeping current lvl-up ratio).

 

* effect of pts distributed manually is very low / bonus from equipment is too high

setup1.JPG

as you can see on the pic, i have lvl 30 forged set + lvl 40 weapons (nothig extra special for lvl40 player)

points to distribute 234 in total, but 227 already in health. assigning one point into hp every levelup would not do much difference in final, assigning more would be "missing" in dmg. same case with energy.

for questing or common pve you dont need much hp/mana anyway (you can use pots or do breaks and rest when needed). for pvp 1:1 having 50% of mana would be enough.

 

* dmg (melee/ranged/spell) has many percentual modifiers (talents, skills, pots) - more base dmg you have, higher effect of the modifier is. while health/energy/focus has only static modifiers (pots/meals) with same effect for everyone regardless of whether he/she leveled the stat or not.


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#5 ExtremelyPoliteGuy

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:32

Yes, the main and only problem with all the disbalance is that there is no choice as well as no need to choose in current state.


Edited by ExtremelyPoliteGuy, 16 October 2013 - 10:35.

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Man.... its boring!!!!  Lets do some everyday TEAM PVP

 


#6 Majjer

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 12:02

i think my last note is the main reason

 

Spoiler

 

i would like to see all dmg % modifiers to be removed and replaced by static values, but i understand how much time and effort it would need to rebuild and balance all again. so in current development state (as we are close to go-live) i would suggest to rebuild static health/energy/focus to percentages and adding several higher level talents for every class with % hp/mana/focus modifiers. players levelin those non-damage attributes should be rewarded some way.


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