75 replies to this topic

[Shadow19231]

So, i was thinking about the current state of PvP. More specifically, about retaliating against losing gold. The common action is to just delevel them 5 times. However, does that really have an effect on PvPers? No. They do not give two cow pies (pun hehe) about losing levels. In fact, they actually welcome it, so to speak. What i propose is actually making PvP a high risk, high reward aspect of the game. What losing levels is to a leveler, is what should be done to a Pvper.. What my problem is i don't particularly know what can be done. Rest assure, i do believe something needs to happen, though. I would like to hear your feedback and thoughts. Thanks for reading.

Edited by Shadow19231, 24 December 2013 - 07:16.

[yghorbeviahn]

Why are you assuming PvPers like to lose lvls?

For a leveler is easier to get those levels back, for a PvPer it's harder, since they use the stamina with other things more than saving for hunting.

I'm doing a lot of PvP nowdays and I'll not like to drop five, and I believe everyone think that (with rare exceptions from those who wants to change range/ladder).

[Removed4427]

[Shadow19231]

Why are you assuming PvPers like to lose lvls?

For a leveler is easier to get those levels back, for a PvPer it's harder, since they use the stamina with other things more than saving for hunting.

I'm doing a lot of PvP nowdays and I'll not like to drop five, and I believe everyone think that (with rare exceptions from those who wants to change range/ladder).

It's not the assumption that you LIKE to lose the levels. It's the assumption that you know that is the only retaliation, and have come to terms with it. Almost as if it's no retaliation at all. Basically since you know what you're getting into, it's low risk high reward. This isn't coming from me personally. I have not hit nor been hit seriously in years. I just look all the active pvpers and they just laugh at the thought of deleveling. There needs to be some kind of risk being taken other than losing 5.

[yghorbeviahn]

It's not the assumption that you LIKE to lose the levels. It's the assumption that you know that is the only retaliation, and have come to terms with it. Almost as if it's no retaliation at all. Basically since you know what you're getting into, it's low risk high reward. This isn't coming from me personally. I have not hit nor been hit seriously in years. I just look all the active pvpers and they just laugh at the thought of deleveling. There needs to be some kind of risk being taken other than losing 5.

With my max stamina (10,5K) i got around 5-6/hunt, so yes, that is a BIG problem to lose 5 lvls if you want to keep on your VL.

I believe we don't need more reasons to make PvP even worst, unlike, we need more ways to incentive PvP on the game, with PvP you make friends, a LOT of friends, what bring you to a strange situation:

- You will retaliate if a friend ask too, don't matter the consequences, if someone smash a friend of yours, you'll smash the hitter back, what keep the BB and the PvP alive.

- If a friend of yours saw you on BB he will clear you with 10stam (have done that on 14 bounties today), so no one will be able to smash you for past revenge, what a lot of people don't like, since they're expecting to drop you some lvls when they bounty you, and some people say that "kills" the PvP on the game.

I don't have a right answer to how to improve the PvP on the game, but we need some new things to keep the PvP profitable again, not just bounties for retaliation or clear.

[Shadow19231]

With my max stamina (10,5K) i got around 5-6/hunt, so yes, that is a BIG problem to lose 5 lvls if you want to keep on your VL.

I believe we don't need more reasons to make PvP even worst, unlike, we need more ways to incentive PvP on the game, with PvP you make friends, a LOT of friends, what bring you to a strange situation:

- You will retaliate if a friend ask too, don't matter the consequences, if someone smash a friend of yours, you'll smash the hitter back, what keep the BB and the PvP alive.

- If a friend of yours saw you on BB he will clear you with 10stam (have done that on 14 bounties today), so no one will be able to smash you for past revenge, what a lot of people don't like, since they're expecting to drop you some lvls when they bounty you, and some people say that "kills" the PvP on the game.

I don't have a right answer to how to improve the PvP on the game, but we need some new things to keep the PvP profitable again, not just bounties for retaliation or clear.

I feel like you're in the minority of PvPers. Also a  much more mature pvper at that, i presume. For almost all of the pvpers, they even state in their bio that they do not care about losing 5.We all care about losing my gold, but we can't retaliate against them? It just seems like a flawed system.  The problem is what i had previously stated. When you attack someone you have come to terms with the fact that you know the ONLY way you get retaliated on is through levels. Let's be real, would they not hit someone because of 5 levels? No. That's why the whole pvp game is still alive. A lot of times, 5 levels means nothing more than a bracket change or gear chance. In which case, the pvper would actually be cautious. However, for almost all pvpers they are at a level they're comfortable with, and usually are making sure they're not 5 levels close to a scenario like that.People see the retaliation, laugh at it, and continue to profit from low risk (No risk), high reward scenarios. There needs to be as much of a high risk as the high reward they get.

Edited by Shadow19231, 24 December 2013 - 16:26.

[yghorbeviahn]

I feel like you're in the minority of PvPers. Also a  much more mature pvper at that, i presume. For almost all of the pvpers, they even state in their bio that they do not care about losing 5.We all care about losing my gold, but we can't retaliate against them? It just seems like a flawed system.  The problem is what i had previously stated. When you attack someone you have come to terms with the fact that you know the ONLY way you get retaliated on is through levels. Let's be real, would they not hit someone because of 5 levels? No. That's why the whole pvp game is still alive. A lot of times, 5 levels means nothing more than a bracket change or gear chance. In which case, the pvper would actually be cautious. However, for almost all pvpers they are at a level they're comfortable with, and usually are making sure they're not 5 levels close to a scenario like that.People see the retaliation, laugh at it, and continue to profit from low risk (No risk), high reward scenarios. There needs to be as much of a high risk as the high reward they get.

But you don't need to choose any kind of 'profession' when you start to play, you can put some PvP gear on and go out and hit everyone. Anyone can do it.

Creating more obstacles for those who want to start will make PvP be forgoted on the game.

[RebornJedi]

there should be a retaliation attack that will exclude placing bounties on both ends if chosen.. hit for hit.. no need to bounty those types of attacks.

 

personally i wish they would nerf the amount of levels you can lose on the bounty board.. for a max of 10% XP and Gold on hand loss, 5 potential levels dropped is quite brutal.. drop that to 2 levels, so one bounty hunter could use 100 stamina to drop all 2 levels (or just drop the double xp loss on the BB?). make it so that if you clear a bounty with 10 stamina attacks, you are excluded from being counter placed on the bounty board (doesn't work the same for 100 stamina clears.. those who clear hard have the right to be up for the same punishment). if you only use 10 stamina attacks and don't finish the bounty then you can only lose up to 1 level on the counter bounty. if you do any 11-100 stamina attacks than you are up for a 2 level bounty (just make it so we can ONLY make 10 or 100 attacks, the game is due for that change!) ...i believe this would encourage more open world PvP attacks and bounty hunting, plus counter bounties from Smasher medal attacks, which is a good thing for BB activity... 

 

also.. bring back Smasher medal attacks in open world PvP.. (the change that never should of happened..)

 

ALSO.. bring back some randomly selected bounty hunter reward system (who cares, just something besides the reward from the bounty)

 

ALSO!.. remove bounty placing from PvP ladder attacks!!! you're kill'n meh smalls!!

Edited by RebornJedi, 25 December 2013 - 01:28.

[Shadow19231]

there should be a retaliation attack that will exclude placing bounties on both ends if chosen.. hit for hit.. no need to bounty those types of attacks.

 

personally i wish they would nerf the amount of levels you can lose on the bounty board.. for a max of 10% XP and Gold on hand loss, 5 potential levels dropped is quite brutal.. drop that to 2 levels, so one bounty hunter could use 100 stamina to drop all 2 levels (or just drop the double xp loss on the BB?). make it so that if you clear a bounty with 10 stamina attacks, you are excluded from being counter placed on the bounty board (doesn't work the same for 100 stamina clears.. those who clear hard have the right to be up for the same punishment). if you only use 10 stamina attacks and don't finish the bounty then you can only lose up to 1 level on the counter bounty. if you do any 11-100 stamina attacks than you are up for a 2 level bounty (just make it so we can ONLY make 10 or 100 attacks, the game is due for that change!) ...i believe this would encourage more open world PvP attacks and bounty hunting, plus counter bounties from Smasher medal attacks, which is a good thing for BB activity... 

 

also.. bring back Smasher medal attacks in open world PvP.. (the change that never should of happened..)

 

ALSO.. bring back some randomly selected bounty hunter reward system (who cares, just something besides the reward from the bounty)

 

ALSO!.. remove bounty placing from PvP ladder attacks!!! you're kill'n meh smalls!!

 

I do like the idea that if you were hit, you could get your "free" hit back. My one complaint is that the reason you would hit back is because they stole your gold. If they had no gold, your counter attack would be pretty pointless. I strongly disagree with the 10 stamina exclusion rule for BB. I think that doing 10 stam clears isn't much help to the game. It almost makes the whole BB useless, if people are working around it. Getting free medals, and saving people's butts. It seems that those guys are wrong, and not the people who 100 stam.

 

 

But you don't need to choose any kind of 'profession' when you start to play, you can put some PvP gear on and go out and hit everyone. Anyone can do it.

Creating more obstacles for those who want to start will make PvP be forgoted on the game.

 

The problem is it's not two skilled players interested in PvP. It's one person stealing gold while the other was stupidly carrying it. However the reason, that person should be able to hit pvpers where it hurts. You've heard me say why before, so i won't be redundant about it. What i will say is there this is not currently an obstacle(retalation methods) out there. This is not the tipping point to stop players from doing it. People don't PvP because despite the mechanics of the game, this is centered around killing monsters. Regardless, I feel something needs to be done. I did like RebornJedi's idea. Please read what my reply to them was.

Edited by Shadow19231, 25 December 2013 - 04:13.

[yghorbeviahn]

Ok, so I'll change the way of see this a little.

During the XP event I've made 354 lvls, using all 750 pots, OK1000, SAC500...I've spent 3,8K FSPs during this event. Do you have any idea how FSPs you'll spend to hunt them back during a 2x Event?

1 level = 10 FSPs, yes, thats about it, from 1027 to 1078 i used 800 FSPs, so, again, that's not easy to lose 5 levels, PvPers agreed with this? Yes, that is a calculated risk.

Same thing with Titan Hunters, once you start to hunt you're able to secure, or not, you can hunt alone and wate 10K+ stamina to get 2nd place, and that's also a calculated risk, and you assume that before you go for the titan.

Only because PvPers accept the risk of losing 5 for each hit they should be hurted more? I disagre with this.

And remember to drop anything 5 lvls on BB you need 4-5 hitters doing 100 stam hits, 900-1000 stam each, 10 hours of stamina ticks to drop only 1 person, multiplied by 4-5 players...Not an easy achievement.

[MSCruz]

As I am new to the game I do not know all the aspects involved with PvP and BB.

 

Particularly, I do not like PvP (unless the two players agreed). Unfortunately, in order to buy FSP we need to carry the gold (as far as I know). Also, when a player can only make one deposit per day, the more gold he make the higher the risk to be stolen.

 

So, my suggestion to this - because I can only understand a player carrying gold is to buy FSP - is to apply the same procedure as the AH: the money should be reserved when you create a request in the Marketplace. If the request expires, then the gold is returned.

 

I presume that low level players have no interest in creating a bounty cause the reward may not be worthwhile.

[yotwehc]

- If a friend of yours saw you on BB he will clear you with 10stam (have done that on 14 bounties today), so no one will be able to smash you for past revenge, what a lot of people don't like, since they're expecting to drop you some lvls when they bounty you, and some people say that "kills" the PvP on the game.

I think your making one of shadows point here. Your clearing "friends" on the BB. That's low risk for the attacker. They win in 2 ways. Scored victims gold on initial attack and friend gets gold/fsp for soft clear. To me, that is why bb is a joke

[Shadow19231]

Ok, so I'll change the way of see this a little.

During the XP event I've made 354 lvls, using all 750 pots, OK1000, SAC500...I've spent 3,8K FSPs during this event. Do you have any idea how FSPs you'll spend to hunt them back during a 2x Event?

1 level = 10 FSPs, yes, thats about it, from 1027 to 1078 i used 800 FSPs, so, again, that's not easy to lose 5 levels, PvPers agreed with this? Yes, that is a calculated risk.

Same thing with Titan Hunters, once you start to hunt you're able to secure, or not, you can hunt alone and wate 10K+ stamina to get 2nd place, and that's also a calculated risk, and you assume that before you go for the titan.

Only because PvPers accept the risk of losing 5 for each hit they should be hurted more? I disagre with this.

And remember to drop anything 5 lvls on BB you need 4-5 hitters doing 100 stam hits, 900-1000 stam each, 10 hours of stamina ticks to drop only 1 person, multiplied by 4-5 players...Not an easy achievement.

 

5 levels is not enough to justify how much gold is being taken for 100 stamina being used. Try to calculate how much stamina it took them to earn that gold stolen.  I did want to note that just because your costs were high, it doesn't mean everyone is. Anyone in my bracket would go way postive on the return for their investment. Even losing 5, i could cover my losses, and have a considerable amount of reward left. It's not equal for everyone. Clearly, the answer is don't be an idiot while hunting. However, if someone happened to be an idiot, they should at least have a true way  to make up for it. I look forward to hearing from you.

 

I think your making one of shadows point here. Your clearing "friends" on the BB. That's low risk for the attacker. They win in 2 ways. Scored victims gold on initial attack and friend gets gold/fsp for soft clear. To me, that is why bb is a joke

I think you're spot on from what i was saying. Even paying off their friends to do a 10clear they are in the positive plus some in the reward aspect of it. It's too much reward for too little risk

Edited by Shadow19231, 25 December 2013 - 19:58.

[yghorbeviahn]

I think your making one of shadows point here. Your clearing "friends" on the BB. That's low risk for the attacker. They win in 2 ways. Scored victims gold on initial attack and friend gets gold/fsp for soft clear. To me, that is why bb is a joke

I'm not all I do, of course, I'm doing gold hits, smashing people a lot too.
I can't say BB is a joke, but you need to find 5 hitters to be ready to smash right after you post.

no one smash players on BB for no reason, you have less risk and use less stamina if you do 10stam clears. The maths are in favor.

[yghorbeviahn]

5 levels is not enough to justify how much gold is being taken for 100 stamina being used. Try to calculate how much stamina it took them to earn that gold stolen.  I did want to note that just because your costs were high, it doesn't mean everyone is. Anyone in my bracket would go way postive on the return for their investment. Even losing 5, i could cover my losses, and have a considerable amount of reward left. It's not equal for everyone. Clearly, the answer is don't be an idiot while hunting. However, if someone happened to be an idiot, they should at least have a true way  to make up for it. I look forward to hearing from you.

Drop 5, smash him hourly, what else can be done? Give me some ideas to work on, so I can give you my proper opinion.

But like I sayed, PvP already have low priority on the game, creating more barriers to PvPers it's not the answer.

[wraith]

To tell you the truth im ready to pull the pin on this game for this reason , i think pvp is an important  part of the game , levelers always preach they have it tough for playing the way they want , its a two way street . i would say rather than change pvp for yet another nail in the coffin change ( unless it is to improve interest as in a thread purposed by yghorbb)   the stereotypes are ruining the pvp . I for one dont have these 10stam clearing friends i keep hearing about  I agree there is a compromise here somewhere less gold for creature kills what do levelers think of that one?  I really dont see very much PVP or BB activity , not like it used to be  anyway. I just dont believe further limiting PVP is gong to help the game as a whole.

[RebornJedi]

open up PvP.. do not put up more walls.. lowers the walls.. break down the walls.. SOMETHING needs to be done.. and hopefully soon. otherwise more players will leave, and for good.. it is very easy for HCS to get involved with making PvP more attractive but they don't.. which is sad...

[yotwehc]

open up PvP.. do not put up more walls.. lowers the walls.. break down the walls.. SOMETHING needs to be done.. and hopefully soon. otherwise more players will leave, and for good.. it is very easy for HCS to get involved with making PvP more attractive but they don't.. which is sad...

Isn't this a matter of closing the barn doors after majority of the animals have fled? (not calling pvp'rs animals or anything). Many make it sound like the best pvp'rs have already headed for the hills. Changing course now you think will save the game and have those old players come back? I think the original launch of Smashing Medal was a good indication of the potential impact of such a change. That was my tipping point. I left the game. What is the balance? I don't know... but a free for all is not good in my opinion.

 

What would make me do PVP? if it was more fair. If belonging to a PVP guild didn't give you a huge advantage. If it was not possible to make someone elses game experience miserable. If PVP was true PVP... attack, counter attack... the closest thing to PVP I had was during a GVG when both the attacker and I were online... I buffed up, cloaked and he still beat me up... but it was fun changing gear and trying to outwit him. (ultimately, my clock was cleaned but man that was fun).

 

Honestly, it is such a hot button issue, I don't think the cows should touch it with a 10 foot pole... perhaps yhor (sp?) idea of a pvp coliseum but again, that's not open to all, which is most of what you all want. I've played other "recent" games and almost all of them have opt-in... they bribe you by giving rewards whether you win or lose but it is all opt in. 

[watagashi]

hmmmm,

Lots of stuff here and instead of going point by point I think its really a issue of not totally getting the mechanics.

 

If you dont want hit its very easy, dont carry enough gold to make it worth the risk, and yes many people dont care about levels (and for the lose 5 and lose your VL one big laugh I have is as I have not set my points I can lose 50 and not hit VL XD )

Dont be a,, well for lack of a better word, a noob! If you get on the bad list of a pvper you are digging your own hole. Bountying, smart or insulting messages, crying to others it only encourages them.

 

IF you put your gold away and still got hit, well some do it for prestige, you have some options,,,

Bounty, and as mentioned before you are pretty much paying for a friend to clear them and steal twice from you, this isnt a flaw in the game its a sad example of how nobody throws stam like they used to! I picked up over 20 FSP in the 2x event by taking it from people who didnt have the sense to put it away and I lost a little over 8 levels,,,,worth it. There are guilds,, few and farther between that isnt a good idea to hit a member of as you have a strong chance to lose 5. But not many out there lately and one reason is all these rising star top 20 for the month dont want to toss their stam away to punish a guy who hit you with 5 million sitting out  

Hit back! This is sometimes all it takes to show you wont take it laying down BUT, you also may be setting up a extended fight. If you arent ready to throw stam a couple times a day it may not be your option,,pvpers like a challenge.

Ignore it!!! If you left gold out, asked for it or sit in stam gear you pretty much forgot it was a pvp game. Buck up buttercup, save the bounty tickets and gold or FSP and move on.

 

Long and short its not a problem with the game its a problem with players, nobody defends themselves or their guildies like they used to! It has allowed this situation to arise, people dont think what always was and still is pleanty of payback is enough and its mostly because they cant get anyone to do it for them!

 

Finally one last thing I want to touch on, its become a kinder and gentler FS over the last couple years. People still pvp but the threat of any message being taken the wrong way and other things. Its almost like a pvp game where only a minority participates and the rest are just our lil jingle bunnys waiting to be seperated from their exp and money and dont think that part in your bio about how you are #11 in your monthly top 20 isnt one reason the guy who has gained and lost levels 100 times doesnt enjoy attacking you and dropping one of those ranks. 

 

I think that I have said it many times and stand by it even today, the problem isnt pvp its that we arent encouraged to do it and have fun with it! Too many get all bent out of shape if you take any exp much less the gold. If there was a way to salvage it and make pvp fun for all id be all for it but sadly think that its just a part of the game I enjoy and participate in but will ever be accepted by the majority of players.

[Shadow19231]

hmmmm,

Lots of stuff here and instead of going point by point I think its really a issue of not totally getting the mechanics.

 

If you dont want hit its very easy, dont carry enough gold to make it worth the risk, and yes many people dont care about levels (and for the lose 5 and lose your VL one big laugh I have is as I have not set my points I can lose 50 and not hit VL XD )

Dont be a,, well for lack of a better word, a noob! If you get on the bad list of a pvper you are digging your own hole. Bountying, smart or insulting messages, crying to others it only encourages them.

 

IF you put your gold away and still got hit, well some do it for prestige, you have some options,,,

Bounty, and as mentioned before you are pretty much paying for a friend to clear them and steal twice from you, this isnt a flaw in the game its a sad example of how nobody throws stam like they used to! I picked up over 20 FSP in the 2x event by taking it from people who didnt have the sense to put it away and I lost a little over 8 levels,,,,worth it. There are guilds,, few and farther between that isnt a good idea to hit a member of as you have a strong chance to lose 5. But not many out there lately and one reason is all these rising star top 20 for the month dont want to toss their stam away to punish a guy who hit you with 5 million sitting out

Hit back! This is sometimes all it takes to show you wont take it laying down BUT, you also may be setting up a extended fight. If you arent ready to throw stam a couple times a day it may not be your option,,pvpers like a challenge.

Ignore it!!! If you left gold out, asked for it or sit in stam gear you pretty much forgot it was a pvp game. Buck up buttercup, save the bounty tickets and gold or FSP and move on.

 

Long and short its not a problem with the game its a problem with players, nobody defends themselves or their guildies like they used to! It has allowed this situation to arise, people dont think what always was and still is pleanty of payback is enough and its mostly because they cant get anyone to do it for them!

 

Finally one last thing I want to touch on, its become a kinder and gentler FS over the last couple years. People still pvp but the threat of any message being taken the wrong way and other things. Its almost like a pvp game where only a minority participates and the rest are just our lil jingle bunnys waiting to be seperated from their exp and money and dont think that part in your bio about how you are #11 in your monthly top 20 isnt one reason the guy who has gained and lost levels 100 times doesnt enjoy attacking you and dropping one of those ranks. 

 

I think that I have said it many times and stand by it even today, the problem isnt pvp its that we arent encouraged to do it and have fun with it! Too many get all bent out of shape if you take any exp much less the gold. If there was a way to salvage it and make pvp fun for all id be all for it but sadly think that its just a part of the game I enjoy and participate in but will ever be accepted by the majority of players.

 

I agree with you for the most part. I think it's 100% of the player's fault. However, if the players won't change the only way anything will change is if the game adjusts to it. I would love to see an actual pvp aspect to this game. Currently, the problem is all PvP is, is those who take from people playing the real aspect of the game. A good majority of people do slip up from time to time. However, there is no retaliation to it whatsoever. Going down to their level would clash a war, and you'd lose by inexperience.  bounty them and they win because their friends clear them. De-level them, and they laugh at you.. There needs to be something better in place if people will mess up

Edited by Shadow19231, 26 December 2013 - 19:58.