New medals should be retrocative. What, all of them? Nah, don't like that thought. Maybe Relic Defence medal but none of the rest in my opinion. Why? New players, new Guilds that's why. These medals are NEW, the requirements to gain them should be NEW. I only make the exception of the Relic Defence medal as most new player and Guilds may, sadly, have little chance of gaining this medal.
If I were a new player in a new Guild and saw players getting Ruby and Diamond in these medals just after introduction I'd be like " geez, new medals, aye right, in introduction only ". " They're not new at all, they were just invisible before and now they're not ".
Just another kick in the teeth to the new guy if the " new " medals were made retroactive in my opinion. And I wouldn't blame them for saying " bugger this " and leave FS land.
Oh, by the way, trying to compare the manipulation of these medals with the Smasher is a non starter. Yes, both can be manipulated by in game mechanics but the manner in which the Smasher is/was abused is quite different. The free hit ads, again, in my opinion, were skirting very close to rule infringement. Not to mention the super quick Guild XP gained when bashing away on a VL realm champion when relevelling. Quite a different situation to these particular medals as there is a definite gain through manipulation. Where's the gain through manipulation with these new ones? Oh yeah, a medal gained quicker. Great.
Just putting forth an alternative point of view.
Cheers.
wil72
Hey wil72,
I appreciate your alternate point of view. I'll admit straight up that I disagree with it.
First off - you cannot claim to imagine what will or will not make people leave FS land. I could just as equally claim that the rampant unfairness of having up to 7 years worth of guild effort in game ignored would make experienced players upset and decide to leave the game. Your claim about new players leaving, my claim about old players leaving, neither are verifiable, objective or measurable. Both are speculation. I think they should be set aside. HCS can look at the attrition rates of players and know what is happening - I doubt they'll share that data with us.
At least one medal has been backdated before. No-one complained then.
New players in the game are behind the curve on gaining all medals. I do not see why you think that some more medals being backdated to reflect the efforts and achievements of those people who have already earned them, would somehow cause newer players to down tools and give up. Do they look at SE diamond medals and think "I'll not bother with that then - someone already has that medal to a really high level, what is the point of me getting it? In fact, sod this for a game of soldiers, I think I'll stop playing the game because of that diamond medal some other bloke has got!" Do they decide not to do quests as the bronze adventurer medal just isn't worth it? Medals are an incentive to play the game, and play aspects of it well. Any new player will start off behind on ALL of them. I do not think seeing some extra medals on other players is going to depress them into inactivity, I may be wrong, but there are a lot of medals out of reach of the new player - top 100, #1, hoarder medal, for instance - anyone who wants those has to have a long term plan and stick to it. If the game in general is entertaining enough, they'll stay. If the game is not interesting or engaging enough, they'll leave. That is the bottom line I feel. I do not think medals, one way or another would be a significant determiner of whether a player chooses to keep playing. As with the players leaving argument - there is no way to verify this objectively one way or an other. I am stating my opinion, as you did yours.
A new guild be distressed by these medals? Same theory - why? The new guild has to start from the ground up anyway and gain their medals. AND - if players had been in guilds prior - if backdated they'd still get credit for their previous guild activity. Everyone wins. A new guild full of new people - same as above - it is just the way of the game to start behind the established players and guilds, I do not see why that means established players and guilds should not be rewarded for the actions they have taken over the years to benefit their guilds.
The medal can be new, the activities are old. I think the longstanding players should have their achievements recognised.
You talk about a kick in the teeth - it is a huge kick in the teeth to see 5+ years of guild effort go unrecognised by badly designed medals.
My issue is with the medals first, the backdating is secondary, its absence is the insult added to the injury of the medals themselves.
My comparison of manipulation with the smasher medals is not a non-starter. My point is not about the specific circumstances of the smasher 'abuse' my point is that these new medals are so easily abused, and so meaningless in terms of what they purport to represent that they 1) devalue other medals by their very existence and 2) the argument used to defend them can be used to defend any other form of 'abuse' including that of the smasher medal, and is that a path we want to follow?
The argument is - These medals aren't harming anyone, what does it matter how they are being gained? How the medal is gained is up to the individual, the individual can judge whether they have done it the right way or not. This is an excuse for manipulation and collusion in the gaining of some of these medals. If allowed to go unchecked it has, in my opinion, very negative effects on all other medals and possibly the entire game, as a culture of playing to get away with as much as possible, rather than pursuing excellence and clean competition is not one that is as enjoyable to me. Maybe I'm a dreamer in this regard.
I pointed out at length in my previous post that this essentially means that any abuse of any medal can be justified on this basis, that what does it matter if the smasher medal was abused - it is up to the individuals involved to care about how they have achieved the medal. If the free hit ads were against the rules, they should have been reported and the advertisers punished. But otherwise the encouragement of free 100 stam hits was fair game - after all - it was up to the individuals involved how they gained their medals - no-one else was being harmed! The mechanic of the medal was being followed!
And here is my point - these new medals have poor basic mechanics, that do not allow them to function as they should or be representative accurately of in game activities as most of the other medals still are. There are always exceptions to be thrown up, I acknowledge that, but these medals mark a new low in design, in my opinion.
For example: These new medals encourage buff spamming to gain the guild bolster medal - what does that have to do with solid guild activity and helping guild mates advance or compete? Buffing someone 70 times with QF does not advance their game play - just saturates their logs. It ain't bolstering the guild, it is bolstering an individual's pursuit of a medal that calls itself a guild medal.
Or how about meaningless deposits into the bank - how does that represent longstanding commitment to the financial health of the guild? It doesn't, and encouraging multiple small deposits in order to grow ticks on a medal does not indicate you are anything like a guild treasurer, yet we have the medal to stare at. If you want a guild gold contribution medal have a tax man medal that records the amount of gold given to a guild in tax. Tax, unlike deposits, cannot be gamed. Not all guilds use tax - well there you have it, an element of choice at guild level about a guild medal. And it can be backdated easily too - LOL!
Group joins - yep, that's fair, but why ignore years of group joins past? When the data is there use it. Now of course groups are being made just to be joined - guild wide circle jerks of group formations, not to kill SE, or kill Elites, but just for the sake of ticks on the medal count. Contribution to guild well being represented there? Other than a willingness to burn stam for each other to gain medals faster, I don't see it. Many many groups were formed in order to kill monsters and gain guild gear in the past. That classic guild contribution is ignored due to no backdating. I think that is wrong.
The relic medal is just bogus and encourages attack fail swapping.
In short these medals are not well designed.
I feel that if we must put up with them, backdating the buffs and joins at the very least minimises the damage from manipulation as those people who have done their guilds proud over many years through selfless help of their fellows through meaningful buffs and meaningful group joins get their reward in the form of higher level medals that reflect the work they have already done - the people joining groups that go nowhere, or get used to fail to take a relic can catch up. The buff spammers can catch up. Being kicked in the teeth is seeing your years of effort ignored, and then seeing the medals that are supposed to represent that effort being gamed and manipulated mercilessly, and to then, as a cherry on top, be told to just keep doing what you were doing before, as though that is a magic wand, and does not ignore the fact that the years of opportunity to do all these things has been lost. That is being kicked in the teeth, in my opinion. Again - the group join - in the past group joins were often needed for SE and elite kills - now often with new gear, buffs, and relics, groups just aren't needed as often. The mobs can be killed solo. So the environment which encouraged group joins no longer exists - so saying "keep doing what you are doing" will not fix that. Backdating does.
My point is not just the medal is gained quicker - it is that it means the medal represents nothing. Or at best represents a willingness to gain the medal in a way not reflective of the intended spirit of the medal. If a medal represents nothing then why have it? If the medals were better designed they would not be gameable, and would represent guild buffing, gold given, relic defence etc. as it stands, they clearly do not represent those things, in my opinion. At best they 'kind of' represent those activities. Do you want a 'kind of' SE medal? A 'sort of' bounty hunter medal? Because that is what you'll get if you allow this to slide, sooner or later, and by then it will be too late.
I guess I'm talking about old fashioned standards - and these medals don't have high enough standards to match their activities. Close the loopholes, make them earned by doing the jobs properly - cool. If they cannot be designed to prevent abuse - don't bother introducing them!
These medals could have been great, I think their introduction is damaging. I think the attitude that they do no harm is damaging, and if you want to let these medals be abused then you lose the right to cry when other medals get manipulated or adversely effected by changes in game circumstance in the future. As I have said.
If the medals are designed to minimise abuse - they work well. Look at the recent frag and artisan medals. These are new medals for a new activity and are a clear baseline for all players to start from, as you wished in your post. Other than buying items to break down, it is pretty hard to abuse the frag medal , and it helped to foster a new internal game market. the new artisan medal - the only way to gain it is by making the potions - can't be gamed. Unless you have access to unlimited amounts of gold and can auto finish to infinity. Those medals are fine. A new medal covering some very old activities is very different from those new medals covering new activities, I would hope you'd agree.
These new medals are too abusable/exploitable, if abuse is too strong a word. I think backdating the achievements at least rewards the good efforts of players through the years, and lessens the bitter taste of seeing medals gained cheaply. It does not solve the problem of their exploit or gameability. Had these things been put up on the forum for discussion I think we'd have seen stronger, better medals as a result.
Medals represent game activity, and the activities a player enjoys or is good at. These new 4 medals cannot clearly represent what they are supposed to, as I have said here and on page 8.
If I had my way they'd be withdrawn, reworked and reintroduced. That will not happen, as I'm sure that would cause more upset than it would solve. I do not want to chase people out of the game by objecting to these medals and their implementation, but i would like to see efforts to recognise long standing guild activity, and if nothing else perhaps the introduction of other medals that do reflect guild activity better and cannot be gamed. Like a tax medal and a relic sitting medal.
It may well be that HCS and the devs will be unmoved by my arguments for backdating, and the medals will stay as they are. I will be very disappointed in that, but will have to accept it.
Another long screed.
Cheers wil.
Yours in Lunacy,
Belaric.
Edited by Belaric, 03 March 2014 - 08:44.
