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FSP --> Gold Manipulation


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#1 DeadParrot

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 20:24

Good day,

I recently walked over to the FSP Market to huck some gold, and found approximately 5, yes 5, postings.  It appears the pages of FSP requests were taken down (I doubt bought out, as it was full 30 minutes prior).  In addition, all the postings in the 160k-180k were down, not the low ones or the desperate high ones.

 

So, being a former stockbroker (I emphasize former, and a terrible one at that), I asked myself, self...could a few players post up some FSP requests at a certain gold price range to artificially buoy the price per FSP, so that some might sell their FSPs at a high gold price? You know what my self said? He said....YEP.  My self also thought this would be most.....unfortunate.

 

Thoughts?

 

DP


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#2 Pardoux

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 20:38

This has been happening pretty much since the game started - or my time in it anyways. Doubt there's much anyone can do about it tho .. and, tbh, not sure if they should ? - after all, anyone can do it ;)


Homer : Marge, don't discourage the boy. Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals .. except the weasel.

 

Eddie Izzard : The National Rifle Association say that guns don't kill people, people do. But I think the gun helps, you know ? I think it helps. I think just standing there going "BANG" - that's not going to kill too many people, is it ?

 

I don't mean to sound pessimistic, but it seems that everything I eat lately turns to poo ...


#3 WWWolf

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 20:38

Good day,

I recently walked over to the FSP Market to huck some gold, and found approximately 5, yes 5, postings.  It appears the pages of FSP requests were taken down (I doubt bought out, as it was full 30 minutes prior).  In addition, all the postings in the 160k-180k were down, not the low ones or the desperate high ones.

 

So, being a former stockbroker (I emphasize former, and a terrible one at that), I asked myself, self...could a few players post up some FSP requests at a certain gold price range to artificially buoy the price per FSP, so that some might sell their FSPs at a high gold price? You know what my self said? He said....YEP.  My self also thought this would be most.....unfortunate.

 

Thoughts?

 

DP

I just checked the FSP market and found a page and a half of requests from 75k to 190k but you do pose a good point.  It would be fairly easy to use your gold to prop up the rates with the hopes of buying it back at a higher price.

 

Of course there is risk in this.  My luck, the instant I put some high requests out there, someone else would snatch them up before they have the chance of raising the rates...

 

The FSP market has always been very volatile...



#4 RebornJedi

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 20:57

Hoof allowed FSP price manipulation even more when they gave players the ability to buy more than one FSP market postings.. 

 

also i know when you post a listing, if you take the gold out of your hand your posting stays for a little bit.. it seems like when that happens your posting should be taken down immediately with no delay, not even how small it is..


 


#5 DeadParrot

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 20:59

This has been happening pretty much since the game started - or my time in it anyways. Doubt there's much anyone can do about it tho .. and, tbh, not sure if they should ? - after all, anyone can do it ;)

Nope....not everybody, only those with means, and resources.

 

DP


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#6 Pardoux

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 21:34

Nope....not everybody, only those with means, and resources.

 

DP

 

Well, true - but those resources don't need to be that high. Granted, the lower they are, the less you stand to make, but ...

 

anyways, I get your point, and it's frustrating when you're in the market but ... not exactly sure what the cows can do about it ..


Homer : Marge, don't discourage the boy. Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals .. except the weasel.

 

Eddie Izzard : The National Rifle Association say that guns don't kill people, people do. But I think the gun helps, you know ? I think it helps. I think just standing there going "BANG" - that's not going to kill too many people, is it ?

 

I don't mean to sound pessimistic, but it seems that everything I eat lately turns to poo ...


#7 BraveKath

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 22:24

This game is merely a microcosm of the real world unfortunately and you don't have to be the sharpest tack in the shed to play this game, but it can also be a challenge if you seek those out.  So it brings all types.  As Pardoux says this has been going on for a long time, though it seems like I've seen it more often of late - where I look and suddenly there's maybe 10 listing of gold sales and it's not even a cave event.  A factor perhaps allowing for greater manipulation is simply that there are fewer people hunting, thus few exchanging gold for fsp.



#8 rowbeth

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 07:43


Of course there is risk in this.  My luck, the instant I put some high requests out there, someone else would snatch them up before they have the chance of raising the rates...

 

A bigger risk is PVP.  By posting enough to shift the market, you advertise yourself as holding a lot of gold, and these days it is very easy to search to find who is the owner of all that gold. So you could easily find that your gold goes before the prices rise AND you have nothing to show for it.

 

Also, my observations suggest a pretty large and rapid turnover  above 190k, and prices in the 180s are common, so I'd suggest little scope for big profits from such control (given the risk of complete loss of gold).



#9 Ryebred

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 09:38

since they fixed PvP protection so in no longer protects gold -there is really nothing to complain about.  I can only hope that the 721 - 741 level range gets an influx of the mentioned activity.  This was a real problem when protection also protected that gold.  Do your part, and detour this type of manipulation in a neighborhood near you!!!  Yeah; kinda like the way that comes off, just upgraded self from "that miserable b@#%@rd gold thief" to civil servant of FS :)


Edited by Ryebred, 14 March 2014 - 09:38.


#10 DeadParrot

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Posted 15 March 2014 - 03:56

since they fixed PvP protection so in no longer protects gold -there is really nothing to complain about.  I can only hope that the 721 - 741 level range gets an influx of the mentioned activity.  This was a real problem when protection also protected that gold.  Do your part, and detour this type of manipulation in a neighborhood near you!!!  Yeah; kinda like the way that comes off, just upgraded self from "that miserable b@#%@rd gold thief" to civil servant of FS :)

Wrong...higher levels can manipulate more, and can afford a pvp hit, just like the big US banks who destroyed the world economy in 2008 (btw still never paid for this).  Larger players can and will take the risk (more minimal to larger players on a percentage of loss/asset basis -- I said I was a lousy stockbroker, not an idiot) to manipulate the market to "win".

 

DP.


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#11 Gutie

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Posted 15 March 2014 - 07:18

As someone who used to "play" with the Maketplace, I can say that the removal of gold protection totally killed the fluctuations of the FSP Market. There used to be huge swings of 20k or more gold per FSP over the course of a couple hours, of which if you sat on the MP as your only objective on FS for that night, even someone like me who had a modest pool of a few hundred FSP on hand could walk away 80 or more FSP richer if you were willing to sit there for 5-8 hours with it.

 

PvP protection removing gold has removed the frequency of and amount of people sitting in the MP...but not the prices thereof.

 

I can speak from not having any intrest in playing on the MP anylonger that there is almost no profit in it to be had. Logical price postings sit there for 10 hours or more due to frantic posters listing at 200k or more at times to outoffer by 10k+ per fsp.

 

People are overreacting to the risk these days, so they post absurdly higher amounts above the highest listed prices for literally no reason, which then causes sellers of FSP to sit and wait out for a fat offer of 205k x 25 like I swiped the other night.

 

It's not manipulation, rather it's total paranoia of the players. I assure you, what went on beforehand was manipulation. I'd nerf the MP by 10-20k per dot and it'd take 2-3 days to get back to it, rinse-repeat. Now... I'm rarely even bothering. I'll just eat my take from donations/titan hunting and use that to help my guild.

 

Only people making a profit in MP are uber-loaded merchants with too much time on their hands IRL. Me? I work full time and go to college, so not going to waste time letting them profit off of me. Anyhow... it's not price setting, it's paranoia that's the case. Just sit on the MP for a few hours refreshing and you'll see the frantic postings for 10k+ gold higher pop up.

 

Edit: As to the listings being so small in number at times.... just look at the amount of guilds with absurd guild banks, not all of that sudden surge of big bank guilds is from guild tax. I regualrly dumped fsp to make large deposits to my guild last year. I'm pretty confident some are doing that as well to boost the guild's banks a nice chunk.


Edited by Gutie, 15 March 2014 - 07:21.

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#12 Ryebred

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Posted 15 March 2014 - 11:39

Wrong...higher levels can manipulate more, and can afford a pvp hit, just like the big US banks who destroyed the world economy in 2008 (btw still never paid for this).  Larger players can and will take the risk (more minimal to larger players on a percentage of loss/asset basis -- I said I was a lousy stockbroker, not an idiot) to manipulate the market to "win".

 

DP.

I disagree, all that is made clear is that higher players need to step up their games some when it comes to liberating gold.  A couple mt hits on a player believing they can "afford" tens of millions of gold lost will resonate. 

 

Definition of BASTARD

1
:  an illegitimate child
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:  something that is spurious, irregular, inferior, or of questionable origin
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a :  an offensive or disagreeable person

 

Examples of BASTARD
  1. Congratulations on getting the job, you lucky bastard!
  2. His wife left him, the poor bastard.
  3. Life can be a real bastard sometimes.

Failing to see where inappropriate language was used.  Sorry to all the bastards out there I may of offended.


Edited by Ryebred, 15 March 2014 - 11:41.


#13 Dowster

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 10:01

Yes, players in a higher position with more resources are more able to play the market, and influence many other aspects of the game, that's how the world - and any artificial community made from a number or real people works. We all started out at level 1 with nothing, and those who have already put the work in to get somewhere are more able to do certain things than those who are not yet in that position.

 

FS is in fact one of the few games where simply being "high level" does not automatically equal more ingame currency. Most people seem to ignore (or are unaware of) the fact that the gold gained per creature kill from hunting caps out at level 300ish, so beyond that point you gain no more gold for your stam from simple grinding - unlike almost every other game out there, and as  hunting effectively becomes more expensive the further you progress it still requires some degree of effort (or real money donations) to actually make enough gold/fsp  to monopolize, especially as many people chasing EoC aren't all that keen on giving up their stam to sell buffs regularly for a cheap price, which seem to be about the easiest source of income for someone above 1200 - which is where I am at the moment after nearly 6 years of playing, although without PvP along the way I would probably be a lot closer to EoC myself.

 

I've never really had or noticed any major issue with the FSP market. On occasion when converting large quantities of FSP to make big gold drops into the guild, I have cleared the FSP listing from top to bottom - getting 200k at first, and down to 100K at the lower end of the listings. It has occurred to me on these occasions that as im now looking at a market with a top priced listing below 100K maybe I could sell some back and offset my conversion loss from all the FSP I just sold at well below a average price, but if I do make low price listings within seconds higher ones pop up above and within not too many minutes the top listings are back up to current average again - because no one of sound mind buys the low price listings, they just wait until the market goes back to average gold per fsp price.

 

As far as using other people to prop up or lower the prices at a given moment so that one person can get a better deal from their own sales, the profit margin isn't that high, there's always going to be others putting up their own listings in the meantime which complicates the issue, and there are easier/more rewarding ways for high level players to make money in the game. Playing the market is just more pain in the arse tedious effort than it's worth, in my opinion anyways ^_^



#14 DeadParrot

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 17:16

A couple points to address previous posts: 

- the paranoia is called investor expectation in RL, and it effectively runs or ruins the stock market, and the big players prey on this.

 

- when a market is flat, only those with large plays will gain substantially, not on a percentage basis, but on a net.  Volatile markets, up or down, are massively profitable to large players, and devastating to smaller ones on a percentage basis.

 

- Being of higher level does have its advantages that are exclusive to them(and this IS NOT EOC BASHING, LET ME BE CLEAR), being: the purchasing of "old" money (fsps in this case) is always cheaper (all things being equal) in the past.  "Older" players bought their dots at a much reduced rate (25k gold at one point), in addition, the sale of buffs exclusive to older players in the past was lucrative, the ability to hunt a greater range of titans, the ability to attract more players to a guild with an EOCer running it, thusly having a greater chance of having a more successful titan team, etc..., and finally the ability to have accumulated more wealth over a greater period of time.  This results in the ability to sway the market with a greater percentage of resources in relation to the whole market.

 

Personal opinion aside, these advantages that arise from FS age, are not the only ways to generate wealth in the game, but merely added advantages that lower don't have access to.  There is no subjectivity here and a result of systemic processes implicit in FS.  

 

DP


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