Jump to content

Photo

Are Assassins Useless?


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
51 replies to this topic

#1 Vladimir00

Vladimir00

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 114 posts

Posted 30 April 2014 - 20:49

Just something I've had on my mind lately... I've been playing around with an assassin as my second character, and while it can be fun, I feel that it's probaby ouclassed by other DPSers in pretty much every way.

 

Assassins lack usable aoe skills and die very quickly. Lethal concoction can deal a lot of damage over time, but you can't really afford to stand still for that long. Spires will deal some damage and allow you to escape, but don't seem great for killing. Genocide can work well with a lot of stacks, but you'll likely be dead before you have enough. They just aren't a good class for grinding compared to Rangers, Mages and Warriors.

 

Additionally, they don't have any unique ability that makes them essential for group play... like Templars, who soak up damage, and Prophets, who heal. So basically, when it comes to PvE, they have the weaknesses of these specialist classes, but not the strengths. I'm starting to see why practically no one plays them.

 

People tell me they have the best DOTs and single target DPS, but is that really true? Rupture actually isn't a very good ability. It has a painfully slow casting animation, and the 200% DPS over 10 seconds is actually less than envenom or sear with the warrior upgrade. Assassinate and Lobotomize can deal a ton of damage with a lot of BT stacks, but guess what? While you're spamming Lacerate and Rupture to slowly build those stacks, rangers are dishing out Black Fangs and Blood Fangs like there's no tomorrow.

 

So when it comes to group play, Assassins are the redheaded step child that no one wants. They're painful to grind, and don't bring anything unique to the table.

 

...and yes, they can be decent in PvP, but guess what? Rangers are also good at pvp... and manage to do so without being terrible at everything else!

 

I dunno... would anyone else who plays the class like to tell me why they bother with it?


Edited by Vladimir00, 30 April 2014 - 20:50.


#2 HuMoR

HuMoR

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,880 posts
  • Badge

Posted 30 April 2014 - 21:00

I have to disagree here with ya,Assassins do have by far the highest single dps in the game and it is very easily noticeable on large bosses lol,you can see the bosses life drop much much faster with a good sin on your team. It is true they arent a good grinding class in comparison to the other 3 mentioned,but that is the point. Assassins aren't meant to be AOE DPS classes like rangers mages and warriors.


Characters:
Guthix:
Level 40 Mage.
Chelsea's Man<3



 


#3 huhbum

huhbum

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 301 posts

Posted 30 April 2014 - 21:01

Just something I've had on my mind lately... I've been playing around with an assassin as my second character, and while it can be fun, I feel that it's probaby ouclassed by other DPSers in pretty much every way.

 

Assassins lack usable aoe skills and die very quickly. Lethal concoction can deal a lot of damage over time, but you can't really afford to stand still for that long. Spires will deal some damage and allow you to escape, but don't seem great for killing. Genocide can work well with a lot of stacks, but you'll likely be dead before you have enough. They just aren't a good class for grinding compared to Rangers, Mages and Warriors.

 

Additionally, they don't have any unique ability that makes them essential for group play... like Templars, who soak up damage, and Prophets, who heal. So basically, when it comes to PvE, they have the weaknesses of these specialist classes, but not the strengths. I'm starting to see why practically no one plays them.

 

People tell me they have the best DOTs and single target DPS, but is that really true? Rupture actually isn't a very good ability. It has a painfully slow casting animation, and the 200% DPS over 10 seconds is actually less than envenom or sear with the warrior upgrade. Assassinate and Lobotomize can deal a ton of damage with a lot of BT stacks, but guess what? While you're spamming Lacerate and Rupture to slowly build those stacks, rangers are dishing out Black Fangs and Blood Fangs like there's no tomorrow.

 

So when it comes to group play, Assassins are the redheaded step child that no one wants. They're painful to grind, and don't bring anything unique to the table.

 

...and yes, they can be decent in PvP, but guess what? Rangers are also good at pvp... and manage to do so without being terrible at everything else!

 

I dunno... would anyone else who plays the class like to tell me why they bother with it?

 

Assassins are a very strong class, and have been helped greatly by the Lethal Concoction(LC) stacking fix.

 

Lethal Concoction is actually extremely strong as an AoE skill in parties, as its damage ignores enemy defense and can be applied near-100% of the time with low haste requirements. Frozen Spires isn't as good as it was pre-nerf, but is a useful kiting tool, though Assassin AoE soloing is less efficient than pure AoE classes such as Warriors. It's true that they aren't the first choice for pure grinders.

 

Unique ability for group play? Shock Trauma. Learn it, use it, love it. It is an incredible DPS boost for party play, and is deep in the Assassin tree.

 

Rupture with talents is on par with Sear with talents and sufficient haste to keep 100% uptime, after the buff to Sear. Lacerate, a dual-wield only skill, is exceptional, and Assassins can and should use all three, as well as LC. When it comes to DoT abilities, uptime plays a significant portion, and Envenom, while quite powerful, requires nigh-impossible haste levels to achieve 100% uptime. Assassins are rarely matched in single-target DPS because of the ability to stack multiple bleeds and keep them up almost permanently, as well as adding burst DPS moves such as Lobotomize(and later, Torture) to supplement those over-time attacks. This makes them extremely useful in DPS race events such as World Bosses and Ascended dungeons.

 

Assassins are the red-headed step-child because of two major things: player talent, and public opinion. Almost any class and build combination can be made viable with enough ingenuity; it's a matter of convincing those players around you to give something a try, and understanding game mechanics well enough to be very good at your role in the game!



#4 Vladimir00

Vladimir00

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 114 posts

Posted 30 April 2014 - 21:46

@huhbum

 

LC isn't very usable in solo play, It can be a good party skill with a good tank to distract all the enemies, but I'm pretty sure it can't compete with those spinning warriors. The radius is also kinda small. I'll give you shock trauma, though. The long cooldown is a pain, but while it's active, the skill helps.

 

...And why is uptime so important? Not being able to keep Envenom up makes sense because it deals so much damage per tick (4x what Rupture deals). That doesn't make it weaker. Sear with talents is better than Rupture with talents. Not by much, but it's better. Sear can deal 300% dps over 10 seconds. Rupture can deal 100% instant damage, then 200% more over 10 seconds. They're similar, but there's that casting animation. Sear is a quick swipe, while rupture feels painfully slow. Not sure why an aoe class's main DOT is better than the single target class's main DOT.

 

One other thing that annoys me about assassins is their lack of threat reduction skills. There's no unique way for an assassin to lower their threat. Sure, there's Concealed, but rangers can use that skill just as effectively as assassins (and have stealth shots to go with it). Assassins have no unique talent upgrade for it.

 

That, and the fact that BT stacks accumulate far too slow for such a squishy class. Your tank had better be flawless, and in solo play/PvP, BT skills might as well not be there.


Edited by Vladimir00, 30 April 2014 - 21:57.


#5 lester

lester

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 589 posts

Posted 30 April 2014 - 21:49

assassins are only good for one thing and that is world bosses with a party because first the boss is not attacking you so getting stacks is actually possible and second the boss is not moving because of a tanks taunt so your concoction actually hits the full duration instead of 2 seconds because usually you be running if anything is focusing you.

Assassins are useless at pvp most of their DMG is all up close .when I'm fighting an assassin is fighting me at pvp in pvp as a ranger I don't let them get a foot close to me . The only time they get to tickle me is when they use the gap closing stun that last like 2 seconds after that if I'm not dead that assassin is in for some pain , ice shot getting him stunned and slowed kite backwards then use creeping vines that last 6 seconds easy kill and they are not only super weak to rangers anyone with range and a stun overpowers them.The only chance they got on killing anyone is prolly a warrior since assassin skills work top tier versus foes who don't move.

PvE assassins lol good luck grinding it is a struggle fighting more than one foe 2 range foes you better have some good pots.

Assasins need to be buffed period.

Tenzo - Ranger
Agnar - Assassin

Best Tv Shows-Gotham,Flash,Arrow,TheBlackList,TheLastShip. :D

Smiley_zpsbe0d0bf2.jpg


#6 Neon

Neon

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,000 posts
  • Badge

Posted 30 April 2014 - 21:58

Assassins are useless at pvp most of their DMG is all up close .when I'm fighting an assassin is fighting me at pvp in pvp as a ranger I don't let them get a foot close to me . The only time they get to tickle me is when they use the gap closing stun that last like 2 seconds after that if I'm not dead that assassin is in for some pain , ice shot getting him stunned and slowed kite backwards then use creeping vines that last 6 seconds easy kill and they are not only super weak to rangers anyone with range and a stun overpowers them.The only chance they got on killing anyone is prolly a warrior since assassin skills work top tier versus foes who don't move.

I beg to differ, when I was actively playing before the content update no one could kill me 1v1 in pvp, no matter their class.


a5kwtf.png

My YouTube Channel - Click Here

 

 

 


#7 HolyGhost

HolyGhost

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 955 posts

Posted 30 April 2014 - 22:00

I beg to differ, when I was actively playing before the content update no one could kill me 1v1 in pvp, no matter their class.

i can confirm. then i spec'd to sin myself at 45, war sin with offensive stance and heavy armor actually, and i was extremely hard to kill with all crafted gear and none of the new charms



#8 ernzor

ernzor

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3,153 posts
  • Badge

Posted 30 April 2014 - 22:04

Yes, sins are useless. I just cant find the respec button...

Oh wait hang on, cancel that

Naked pirate will be back!

When lvl 50 is here


#9 Vladimir00

Vladimir00

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 114 posts

Posted 30 April 2014 - 22:06

I beg to differ, when I was actively playing before the content update no one could kill me 1v1 in pvp, no matter their class.

 

Care to explain how? The only way I can think of for an assassin to beat, say, a ranger, is to close the gap with eclipse, get in a quick lacerate then use jolt (with both warrior and assassin talent upgrades) so the ranger can't stun or snare you... then pray that during the silence duration, you can build enough BT stacks to finish him with an assassinate or lobotomize before he gets his abilities back.

 

And that seems like a long shot.



#10 Mongo

Mongo

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,879 posts
  • Badge

Posted 30 April 2014 - 22:06

A good assassin on a dungeon run always seems to speed up the boss kills, so in that regard I would say they are great!  :D


Visit my shop! Mongo's Emporium for emotes, pets, vanity and more!


#11 Vladimir00

Vladimir00

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 114 posts

Posted 30 April 2014 - 22:10

(Bah... first reply didn't show up for some reason.)


Edited by Vladimir00, 30 April 2014 - 22:11.


#12 ernzor

ernzor

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3,153 posts
  • Badge

Posted 30 April 2014 - 22:13

After lvl 35 sins can aoe grind too. Well i managed to anyway. Need shock trauma and watch your step maxed. Then blind/spires/run/soul fire/blind/spires/run that combo took out pretty much anything at lvl for me from 35 onwards. Granted its not anywhere near as good as other classes, but it is possible.

They are great, just need to learn the class

Naked pirate will be back!

When lvl 50 is here


#13 lester

lester

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 589 posts

Posted 30 April 2014 - 22:34

A good assassin on a dungeon run always seems to speed up the boss kills, so in that regard I would say they are great!  :D

Yea for boss kills if someone in the group has taunt if not he might as well be playing the spectator class.


Tenzo - Ranger
Agnar - Assassin

Best Tv Shows-Gotham,Flash,Arrow,TheBlackList,TheLastShip. :D

Smiley_zpsbe0d0bf2.jpg


#14 huhbum

huhbum

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 301 posts

Posted 30 April 2014 - 22:38

@huhbum

 

LC isn't very usable in solo play, It can be a good party skill with a good tank to distract all the enemies, but I'm pretty sure it can't compete with those spinning warriors.

 

...And why is uptime so important? Not being able to keep Envenom up makes sense because it deals so much damage per tick (4x what Rupture deals). That doesn't make it weaker. Sear with talents is better than Rupture with talents. Not by much, but it's better. Sear can deal 300% dps over 10 seconds. Rupture can deal 100% instant damage, then 200% more over 10 seconds. They're similar, but there's that casting animation. Sear is a quick swipe, while rupture feels painfully slow. Not sure why an aoe class's main DOT is better than the single target class's main DOT.

 

One other thing that annoys me about assassins is their lack of threat reduction skills.

 

LC can't compete with spinning Warriors because spinning Warriors who want to maximize their DPS can and should take LC talents as well, and I'm already starting to see more Warrior/Sin hybrids in dungeons. It's not as useful for Assassins in solo play, but can be useful for Warrior or Templar hybrid variants in solo/group play(I fiddled around with this a few times, and it can actually be a really neat build if you can tank the hits).

 

The reverse is true as well. Bleed Assassins who want to maximize their DPS can and should take Sear talents as well. Rupture can and should be used in addition to its bleed value due to the fact that not only does it apply Blood Thirst, but since the damage portion can crit, it can generate double stacks. Also, Rupture has a unique interaction with health on hit effects in that it does a 'double hit' for on-hit purposes. Yes, the skill animation is too long, but it's still an absolutely worthwhile skill to use in any Assassin rotation.

 

As to uptime: uptime is incredibly important in prolonged fights(basically, every boss battle and dungeon post-30). Three out of the four Assassin bleed skills are 'fire and forget', meaning they can be used and will tick away while the Assassin is doing other things. This is also what makes Lethal Concoction a competitive AoE skill versus talented Blizzard, Storm, Maelstrom, or Dragon's Breath, as while those skills do more damage than LC, LC doesn't require channel time!

 

Comparing Ranger Envenom to Assassin Bleed DPS via uptime:

 

Envenom does 84% DPS per second for 5s when fully talented, with a cooldown of 25s. If we assume Rangers took 4/4 Dexterous but have no other Ranged Haste modifiers, with Haste buff, that's 17% Ranged Haste before stats(probably in the range of an additional 10% Ranged Haste). Let's be even more ambitious and suppose the Ranger has 50% total Ranged Haste(in a stacked situation) for 84% DPS per second, for 5s every 12.5s(this is an unlikely scenario, but we'll skew the raw data in favor of Rangers to make their bleed more competitive).

 

Sum total is 425% DPS every 12.5s. However, Envenom is also fire and forget, meaning they will get some extra global cooldown skill or autoattack hits in because they are using one skill, not three.

 

Stacking talented LC, talented Sear, and talented Rupture, not including talented Lacerate(which functions differently) is 45%+34.5%+23% DPS per second(remember that Lacerate, Sear and Rupture can be further boosted by Serrated Edge 3/3), for a total of 102.5% DPS per second, for 10 of 12.5 seconds without any Melee Haste whatsoever(with enough Melee Haste, you can have all of these skills up more or less permanently).

 

Sum total is 1025% DPS every 12.5s, minus a few auto attacks/Black Fangs, but not counting Haste, or Lacerate.

 

This is a demonstration of why uptime is important. Envenom beats any individual bleed skill in a short burst encounter with the exception of LC, which outright beats Envenom if the cast animation of LC is not considered. However, in prolonged fights, over time, Assassins not only have superior bleed DPS, but have way more bleed DPS skills than Rangers.

 

This isn't to say that Rangers have poor DPS, but that Assassin single-target DPS with bleeds is superior.

 

TL:DR version: Just because a skill isn't in your specific class tree doesn't mean it's not useful and doesn't mean it won't make your specific 'class' more powerful. The sooner players realize that this game is only loosely based on a class system, and is actually much more open than that in terms of talent and skill usage, the sooner players will discover new and untapped power!


Edited by huhbum, 30 April 2014 - 22:43.


#15 lester

lester

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 589 posts

Posted 30 April 2014 - 22:42

After lvl 35 sins can aoe grind too. Well i managed to anyway. Need shock trauma and watch your step maxed. Then blind/spires/run/soul fire/blind/spires/run that combo took out pretty much anything at lvl for me from 35 onwards. Granted its not anywhere near as good as other classes, but it is possible.

They are great, just need to learn the class

Yes but to go sin all the way from level 1 to level 35 that struggle in the beginning is what makes people re spec to a warrior before reaching level 35 with a sin. My first class was a assassin first day this game was release leveled really easy with frozen spires after the nerf i re-speced instantly that nerf seriously damaged assassin, the biggest one yet and now with the free account slot HCS gave us I tried to see if it was still easy , what I found out is the assassin is 2-3x harder to play now.Don't take my word for it play as a assassin from level 1-35 no respecs or anything or exp pots or supporters and see how long it takes and how boring it is.The point of this experiment no free player is going to start out as a assassin for long.

 

In response to Neon after that nerf I remembered we did a pvp match and i was still level 20 something and i could dish out a crap ton of dmg to you with the ranger with barely any cc like creeping vines and the aoe stun.


Tenzo - Ranger
Agnar - Assassin

Best Tv Shows-Gotham,Flash,Arrow,TheBlackList,TheLastShip. :D

Smiley_zpsbe0d0bf2.jpg


#16 huhbum

huhbum

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 301 posts

Posted 30 April 2014 - 22:56

Ooh, I just thought of something as a result of this thread, actually.

 

At Level 50, a player could get all of talented Maelstrom, talented Meteorite, talented LC, talented Sear, talented Rupture, AND Shock Trauma, with 23% bonus Melee Haste from talents with a 24/22 War/Sin hybrid build.

 

http://talenttheory....o3p2u2v1w1x1I2/

 

That...is some scary DPS. I bow down to our new Warssassior overlords.


Edited by huhbum, 30 April 2014 - 22:58.


#17 lester

lester

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 589 posts

Posted 30 April 2014 - 22:57

I hear a lot of Ass/War is the way to go.Why does it have to be only War/Ass why can't it be just assassin, we can't have a pure assassin in the game? Why must we be led to one path, I don't like that ,I hope that when HCS updates the classes  assassins will be the first one they look at then the tank, because this is ridiculous.


Edited by lester, 30 April 2014 - 22:59.

Tenzo - Ranger
Agnar - Assassin

Best Tv Shows-Gotham,Flash,Arrow,TheBlackList,TheLastShip. :D

Smiley_zpsbe0d0bf2.jpg


#18 ernzor

ernzor

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3,153 posts
  • Badge

Posted 30 April 2014 - 23:05

I am close to pure sin. Only grabbed dodge from war and haste from ranger. Everything else is sin.

 

I started a suggestion ages ago to give pure builds (no hybriding) some sort of bonus. But that didnt get a response that I remember from HCS...


Naked pirate will be back!

When lvl 50 is here


#19 Vladimir00

Vladimir00

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 114 posts

Posted 30 April 2014 - 23:07

@huhbum

 

Well when you put it that way, of course bleed assassins are more powerful. You're comparing one skill with a relatively minor talent point investment to 3 skills with heavy talent point investment, and aren't even considering the number of other powerful, direct damage skills that rangers can spam (often while the assassin is still fumbling through the animations to get all his bleeds applied).

 

I do like the idea of hybridization, but it comes at a heavy cost since it further delays getting the more powerful assissn skills deep in the tree... so it's difficult to decide where to begin.



#20 huhbum

huhbum

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 301 posts

Posted 30 April 2014 - 23:08

I started a suggestion ages ago to give pure builds (no hybriding) some sort of bonus. But that didnt get a response that I remember from HCS...

 

I play only hybrids, and I am still in support of this notion. But it would be extremely tricky to balance properly. Too much of a buff to pure classes, and you'd risk eliminating all hybrid creativity.

 

That said, and especially looking forward to Level 50, I hope they encourage going deep into each class tree. The most functional way to do that would be to add new talents at the bottom of each tree that require even further point investment!




Font:
Arial | Calibri | Lucida Console | Verdana
 
Font Size:
9px | 10px | 11px | 12px | 10pt | 12pt
 
Color: