warsin is simpler name hub and yes i had though of that evil char
Are Assassins Useless?
#22
Posted 30 April 2014 - 23:13
@huhbum
Well when you put it that way, of course bleed assassins are more powerful. You're comparing one skill with a relatively minor talent point investment to 3 skills with heavy talent point investment, and aren't even considering the number of other powerful, direct damage skills that rangers can spam (often while the assassin is still fumbling through the animations to get all his bleeds applied).
You're right, the most fair way to compare it would be to compare strictly Envenom to strictly LC(which are the two most comparable skills in terms of overall damage). That said, because each individual skill has its own unique set of battle mechanics, it was easier to explain it in terms of raw bleed damage, one class to another. But I could've explained it more clearly, and I apologize.
However! Just because one particular skill available to a player doesn't seem as strong as another skill, doesn't mean it's useless. All skills have to be considered in terms of their use in a rotation, and what kinds of utility they bring to the table.
Take a skill like Rejuvenate for example. On its own, it is easily the worst healing skill available in the game. However, correctly applied, it's saved my life more times than I can count due to its synergy with 2/2 Salvation!
Rupture on paper looks worse than Sear(mind you, Sear was absolutely awful until it got buffed). But the two skills can be used together in a powerful DPS combination, as they don't interfere with one another!
Edited by huhbum, 30 April 2014 - 23:16.
#23
Posted 30 April 2014 - 23:14
@huhbum
Well when you put it that way, of course bleed assassins are more powerful. You're comparing one skill with a relatively minor talent point investment to 3 skills with heavy talent point investment, and aren't even considering the number of other powerful, direct damage skills that rangers can spam (often while the assassin is still fumbling through the animations to get all his bleeds applied).
I do like the idea of hybridization, but it comes at a heavy cost since it further delays getting the more powerful assissn skills deep in the tree... so it's difficult to decide where to begin.
you forget something to i'm pretty sure you can dodge lacerate and rupture if you move out of the way quick but when a ranger attacks and uses envenom , you can't move out of the way since im pretty sure its a lock on.Rangers are far superior to assassins because of the fast attack speed and CC and thats another thing why don't assassins attack faster than the tanks and warriors? There should be a talent for assassins that increases their attack speed or make dagger have more attack speed on them.
Tenzo - Ranger
Agnar - Assassin
Best Tv Shows-Gotham,Flash,Arrow,TheBlackList,TheLastShip. ![]()
#24
Posted 30 April 2014 - 23:21
you forget something to i'm pretty sure you can dodge lacerate and rupture if you move out of the way quick but when a ranger attacks and uses envenom , you can't move out of the way since im pretty sure its a lock on.Rangers are far superior to assassins because of the fast attack speed and CC and thats another thing why don't assassins attack faster than the tanks and warriors? There should be a talent for assassins that increases their attack speed or make dagger have more attack speed on them.
Sear, Rupture, and Envenom are all auto-hit abilities. If you are in range of the target, they will always land if you use the ability. Rupture is a slightly unique case as its physical damage portion if talented can be pseudo-dodged(you can dodge the 100% damage of Devastating Impact 2/2) but it will still do 1 point of damage to add a Blood Thirst stack even if that portion misses.
Edit: This needs more testing, but I have the hypothesis that both the 100% Devastating Impact damage AND the 1 damage 'miss' damage hit on Rupture can both crit. If this is the case, it may actually be possible to generate four stacks of Blood Thirst from a single Rupture if you have the Hunger For Blood talent and are lucky with crits. I have not tested this, however, you'll have to ask ernzor to help test!
Lacerate is a unique case as it's the only Bleed move that is not auto-hit. If the damage portion of Lacerate is dodged or misses, it will not apply the Lacerated debuff and/or refresh Lacerated stacks.
Of course, you are talking about a strictly PvP scenario in your post. Yes, it is easier to land an Envenom from range than it is to get to melee range to a target and land melee skills! I believe Envenom stacking was mentioned as a PvP balance issue, but I don't enjoy PvP, so I don't test it.
Edited by huhbum, 30 April 2014 - 23:35.
#25
Posted 30 April 2014 - 23:53
@huhbum
Comparing LC and Envenom does't make a lot of sense, either... since Envenom is lock-on and not area target. I see what you mean, though. I just don't think it makes much sense for the aoe class to have the sronger dot. Also, getting the sear skill is kind of a drag, because you need those 3 points. If you use medium armor, you basically have to put 2 in finesse (actually quite useful), and 1 in heavy-handed, which is basically a wasted point.
Though I guess to be fair, warriors trying to borrow the LC and Rupture upgrades from the sin tree have it even worse. They don't dual wield or use medium armor, so they have to get Expertise. blech ![]()
Also, this bleed stuff has very limited use... really, it's confined to world bosses and dungeon bosses. Other classes have far more versatility.
This is slightly unrelated, but should assassins forget about Swift Stride and upgrades? 20s of +20% dodge sounds really nice for defense, but I wonder if sins should be worrying about defense at all.
Edited by Vladimir00, 01 May 2014 - 00:02.
#26
Posted 01 May 2014 - 00:13
Also, this bleed stuff has very limited use... really, it's confined to world bosses and dungeon bosses. Other classes have far more versatility.
This is slightly unrelated, but should assassins forget about Swift Stride and upgrades? 20s of +20% dodge sounds really nice for defense, but I wonder if sins should be worrying about defense at all.
Some skills have a far stronger use in a particular role. Swift Stride is custom-built for soloing and PvP, but has marginal effectiveness in groups as it doesn't directly contribute DPS.
Tailoring your build to your playstyle is critical. I know for certain that there's plenty of builds there that are yet to be untapped, that will excel in certain situations. Catch-all builds can work for a variety of purposes, but will rarely be as strong as role-specific builds for the specific situations they're designed for.
#27
Posted 01 May 2014 - 00:59
I will just sum up the OP question quite easily.
No assassins are not useless, the reasons why:
PvE - Shock Trauma, poison stacks (whatever they're called). Basically you get damage amplification for everyone attacking the target. You also have great single target dps, the downside to output great damage you will be using up your mana more than /on par with a templar.
PvP - You can lockdown a single target and potentially get off 3-4 bleeds with a possible lobotomize before a target can move, when they run a jolt normally finishes them off. The downside to that combo is it has a medium cooldown time before you can re-engage with the whole thing.
Picking an assassin for a pve group would be for completing the boss/instance/task in the fastest possible time, the damage amplification and single target is unmatched.
Picking an assassin for a pvp team would be for picking of high priority targets such as prophets and then mages.
Warriors and other assassins are a hard counter to assassins, rangers can also deal nice damage to them but their main threat is envenom which is easily avoided.
Edited by Neon, 01 May 2014 - 01:02.
#28
Posted 01 May 2014 - 01:04
I will just sum up the OP question quite easily.
No assassins are not useless, the reasons why:
PvE - Shock Trauma, poison stacks (whatever they're called). Basically you get damage amplification for everyone attacking the target. You also have great single target dps, the downside to output great damage you will be using up your mana more than /on par with a templar.
PvP - You can lockdown a single target and potentially get off 3-4 bleeds with a possible lobotomize before a target can move, when they run a jolt normally finishes them off. The downside to that combo is it has a medium cooldown time before you can re-engage with the whole thing.
Assassins early game is what makes people not play the class in the first place.Lack of AoE Dmg/Surv.
Solo play is what troubles most assassins, they really depend on a group both in PvE and PvP
PvE- To taunt bosses away from you, since you can get one-two shotted quite easily
PvP-You need a group to distract the enemy players for you can pick out targets who used most of their cc and such.
In a matchup 1 vs 1 assassins will generally lose to range classes, maybe warriors too if they get a bunch of stuns on you.
Edited by lester, 01 May 2014 - 01:05.
Tenzo - Ranger
Agnar - Assassin
Best Tv Shows-Gotham,Flash,Arrow,TheBlackList,TheLastShip. ![]()
#29
Posted 01 May 2014 - 01:38
Neon, how do you apply 3-4 bleeds in 2s? A single rupture probably takes more than one of those two seconds. Seems to me like you'd be lucky to get off 2 bleeds.
Edited by Vladimir00, 01 May 2014 - 01:42.
#30
Posted 01 May 2014 - 01:49
yeah i'ld like to know how to do 3-4 casts in 2 seconds since the general CD itself is 1.5 seconds... isn't it? anyway its atleast 1 second. so at most 2 casts. though i could see 3 dot's... stun>dot>silence> dot> dot but that is impeccable timming and much harder when the target's party is there with them.
although to the OP i'ld still have to say assassin's aren't useless as the topic asks. they could use a bit of love did they ever get a "middle ground" for spires the staff said they'ld get months ago? (seriously dont know don't remember seeing it posted) and they certainly need some more incentive to use medium armor.
but over all i love my haste whore's... err i mean assassin's after all need someone to res people in world boss fights that we wont miss their dps while doing it
(err wait i guess that's just ernzypoo)
no longer playing so feel free to ignore more (if i even post) just do still follow forums so MAY comment from time to time.
#31
Posted 01 May 2014 - 03:16
hehe /middlefinger awol
Naked pirate will be back!
When lvl 50 is here
#32
Posted 01 May 2014 - 12:34
In a matchup 1 vs 1 assassins will generally lose to range classes, maybe warriors too if they get a bunch of stuns on you.
I don't think you have ever played as a sin. In a 1v1 Sin is the STRONGEST class. With a simple Eclipse->(blind->)Lacerate->Spires->Rupture->Lobot rotation a ranger is dead. The eclipse->spires combo can knock any target out of the running as they can't run. Warriors don't have the single target DPS. Sure they might have meteorite to get a good stun in but after that they will rely on ruin and sever. Sever might be good for ranged targets but sins don't have to worry about it.
Please before you make a fool out of yourself just even try to understand a classes talents.
I only recently spec'd to sin but I will NEVER spec out on the character.
#33
Posted 01 May 2014 - 12:40
Neon, how do you apply 3-4 bleeds in 2s? A single rupture probably takes more than one of those two seconds. Seems to me like you'd be lucky to get off 2 bleeds.
yeah i'ld like to know how to do 3-4 casts in 2 seconds since the general CD itself is 1.5 seconds... isn't it? anyway its
I never said 2 seconds of lockdown, there are other abilities you can chain to keep a target in place.
#34
Posted 01 May 2014 - 17:23
Tenzo - Ranger
Agnar - Assassin
Best Tv Shows-Gotham,Flash,Arrow,TheBlackList,TheLastShip. ![]()
#35
Posted 01 May 2014 - 17:44
I have played assassin and I understand the slow animations of lacerated and rupture with your combo you would prolly get the lacerate off before I stun you and snare making you relay on crap DMG from ranged attacks , in a real 1vs 1 situation I'd expect you to eclipse first and ask questions later so I would save strong cc to counter that. Many level 40 assassins try to kill me as a ranger and when more than one sin shows behind my back all I do is use monsoon stunning them followed up by creeping vines and then I use my crap ton of aoe skills like blazing arrow and detonate arrow to finish them off.
I was doing pvp for a good 2-3 months and went against many rangers, some of which that actually could play their class. You're wrong about assassins.
#36
Posted 01 May 2014 - 18:09
This is slightly unrelated, but should assassins forget about Swift Stride and upgrades? 20s of +20% dodge sounds really nice for defense, but I wonder if sins should be worrying about defense at all.
Some skills have a far stronger use in a particular role. Swift Stride is custom-built for soloing and PvP, but has marginal effectiveness in groups as it doesn't directly contribute DPS.
Tailoring your build to your playstyle is critical. I know for certain that there's plenty of builds there that are yet to be untapped, that will excel in certain situations. Catch-all builds can work for a variety of purposes, but will rarely be as strong as role-specific builds for the specific situations they're designed for.
I took swift stride maxed as ranger/assassin hybrid (just for fun), and it saved me at least 500g in repairs in 2 weeks. In BT, it saved me from one hit kill attacks at least 20 times, and there's a lot of times I was only person to survive a party wipe and able to kite everything else down. Was able to semi-tank some things too if tank was downed, and able to pull mobs off healers more safely. As bum said, it depends on your playstyle.
#37
Posted 01 May 2014 - 18:17
Neon, how do you apply 3-4 bleeds in 2s? A single rupture probably takes more than one of those two seconds. Seems to me like you'd be lucky to get off 2 bleeds.
yeah i'ld like to know how to do 3-4 casts in 2 seconds since the general CD itself is 1.5 seconds... isn't it?
I never said 2 seconds of lockdown, there are other abilities you can chain to keep a target in place.
Frostbite, maybe?
#38
Posted 01 May 2014 - 18:21
I have played assassin and I understand the slow animations of lacerated and rupture with your combo you would prolly get the lacerate off before I stun you and snare making you relay on crap DMG from ranged attacks , in a real 1vs 1 situation I'd expect you to eclipse first and ask questions later so I would save strong cc to counter that. Many level 40 assassins try to kill me as a ranger and when more than one sin shows behind my back all I do is use monsoon stunning them followed up by creeping vines and then I use my crap ton of aoe skills like blazing arrow and detonate arrow to finish them off.
You seriously had 2 assassins jump you and you survived? I find that hard to believe -.-
Hard to survive 1 good PvP sin, let alone 2 at the same time.
Edited by Alteration, 01 May 2014 - 18:21.
#39
Posted 01 May 2014 - 19:10
1 could have been me. I just button mash and hope for the best if I miss my rotation, lol
Naked pirate will be back!
When lvl 50 is here
#40
Posted 01 May 2014 - 20:01
1 could have been me. I just button mash and hope for the best if I miss my rotation, lol
I could tell , i always see that naked guy in my peripheral vision ,I'm just waiting till you Eclipse me,then when you do i smash my Ice shot button like crazy you could do a probably good 2-3k dmg on me with my 7k hp max till you are snared and screwed, since you are snared out of position.
Tenzo - Ranger
Agnar - Assassin
Best Tv Shows-Gotham,Flash,Arrow,TheBlackList,TheLastShip. ![]()


