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Need VS Greed


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#1 Berlo

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 00:27

So I had a bit of an incident last night while in a dungeon with a few players. I won't mention anyone's names because the issue has been resolved between us and I do my best to avoid drama in-game as much as possible.
 
I just wanted to touch on the subject of NEED VS GREED in the world of Eldevin because it appears there are some different community standards compared to what I am accustomed to. I have been playing MMORPGs for over 10 years now and the rolling system on items has been prominent within these games for almost as long as I have been involved in the genre.
 
Typically, a piece of loot would drop and a player would either roll need or greed on the piece of loot depending on how it would affect their progress within the game. This works great and ensures players receive the loot they are entitled too.
 
Here are some English definitions of the word:
  • need: require (something) because it is essential or very important rather than just desirable.
  • greed: intense and selfish desire for something, especially wealth, power, or food.
 
Last night, I was insulted and kicked from a group because I rolled need on an Elemental Flake that I require for my level 20 crafted helmet. I didn't roll need on this loot because I wanted to sell it for profit, I rolled need on this loot because I needed it to further improve my character. My reason for pressing need comes under the definition of the word need.
 
According to the members of this group, everyone should roll greed on items that everyone needs. This also doesn't make sense to me as it basically contradicts the entire sentence. If everyone in a group needs something, they should press the need button. That is what it is there for.
 
Maybe I am not understanding the system properly, but in every single MMORPG I have ever played works the way I have described, however Eldevin appears to use their need/greed system in a much different way according to this specific group. They basically outlined that if I roll need on something that another person also needs, I will then be kicked from groups and no one will group with me in the future.
 
I guess my reason for this post is to get community feedback on how everyone believes the need/greed system works and how they personally use it to progress their character while in groups.

Edited by Berlo, 14 August 2014 - 00:27.


#2 Mongo

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 01:05

The system works fine Berlo, but like you say coming from games where it is different it can be difficult to get your head around at first.

 

I dug up a thread I made explaining how the system was adopted by players In Eldevin. Note that I did not make the rules, this guide was  just posted for information to help players like yourself.  :)

 

http://forums.hunted...-players-guide/


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#3 ernzor

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 01:12

I cant remember how it even got to that mongo and I have been here since day 1 with you guys. Probably someone said, hey we all need those, and will always all need those, so to avoid confusion lets all roll greed.

 

Everyone the agreed, not thinking that it didnt even make sense.

 

Then passed it down to each new player.

 

Whats even worse. As soon as you start doing WBs, you have to completely forget about the rulebook, lol


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#4 Mongo

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 01:19

Me too ernz, I just went with the flow. :D

 

I have never had a problem though, but grouping only with people you trust and have fun with probably went a long way towards making the current system a bit strange.


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#5 zargon

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 01:33

Need = Set Gear Piece from dungeon that is for your specific class

Need = Other gear piece which others agree that you can need on after you have asked the group

Greed = All other items you want

Pass = All item you have no desire to have - those items which are more for lower levels use.

 

note: Should never choose Need on flakes, remnants and gems ;)

 

Only exception is World Boss - There you do choose NEED

 

Generally, a godly item will not be Needed upon as it will sell for a high value.

ie: a double haste staff


Edited by zargon, 14 August 2014 - 01:47.


#6 Berlo

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 01:42

But I do need Flakes, Remnant and Gems? They will improve my character. I don't sell these things for gold.


Edited by Berlo, 14 August 2014 - 01:42.


#7 zargon

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 01:44

Everyone needs them or wants them to sell or trade or use. Thus, you must choose GREED. This is the standard


Edited by zargon, 14 August 2014 - 01:44.


#8 Berlo

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 01:47

But if everyone NEEDS them, why doesn't everyone just press NEED?



#9 zargon

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 01:49

Berlo, I am just conveying to you the standard in-game. This is what people do. I try to help any lower level to understand this as many people do exactly the same as you do until they learn the eldevin way.


Edited by zargon, 14 August 2014 - 01:49.


#10 luke94

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 01:51

But if everyone NEEDS them, why doesn't everyone just press NEED?

 

if everyone presses NEED then it rolls the same as if everyone had pressed GREED although the general rule is as stated by zargon "Should never choose Need on flakes, remnants and gems"

 

and by you saying that rems,gems,flakes are needed to improve your character.. then that means they are required to improve everyones character hence they are greeded. if you are lucky at times you can ask and the person who won the item might either give to you for free or for a reduced price :)


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#11 Removed94

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 01:53

There's no logic that will cover all different reasoning. Technically, using the "required" definition, we should all need on everything because we need the gold from selling it to repair gear, and without repaired gear we all couldn't advance.

 

Just something else to make our game unique, a loot convention that nobody can really explain.



#12 Berlo

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 02:06

if everyone presses NEED then it rolls the same as if everyone had pressed GREED although the general rule is as stated by zargon "Should never choose Need on flakes, remnants and gems"

 

So there is actually no difference whether everyone pushed greed or everyone pushed need. It's solely the fact that people randomly decided that greed is a better option than need.

 

Although, if everyone pushed need, there would be no room for error and it would ALWAYS ensure a fair roll on the items. If everyone pushes greed except 1 person, that person instantly gets the loot and the rest of the group get grumpy because this person didn't understand the logic or used it to their advantage to obtain loot.

 

It makes more sense for everyone to press NEED on the items that would improve their character. Greed is relative to personal gain regarding currency, not personal improvement.



#13 awollsd

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 03:01

i'ld start with the items aren't NEEDED if you take need as in anything that will help your toon then everyone NEEDS everything...  we then need every gem, ever flake, every remnant.. it becomes chaos. as all of those things can and will improve your toon.

 

so then where do we draw the line?  the standard here has been if you equip it when you win the roll you roll need. if you cant equip it untill you level up a little more then you ask to make sure someone that can equip it NOW doesn't need it then you can need if it's ok.  if you aren't going to equip it then you don't really NEED it. and it works.

 

now the people in your group should had discussed this not instantly kicked you.. that was pretty shitty of them if thats how it went down. idk i don't play anymore.

 

 

now as for why people set the standard to everyone greed's items thats wanted by all players i could only asume it's easier to press greed repeatidly then trying to watch and switch to roll need on said items (gems, flakes, mats) if it was everyone roll need then i could easily foresee many times where someone accadently clicked need on other items aswell.


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#14 Narciss

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 04:57

True, we need everything from remnants, gems, equip, etc, either for improving our toons, or selling them for profit.

 

However, there is one important point actually between greed and need. Some good-class-specific-equips are bound (bind on pickup), thus greed-need is needed to allow someone who really needs them to obtain that bound stuff.

 

So logically, it is much more easy for you to choose greed on everything except for those bound stuff, rather than need on everything then greed to allow someone obtaining their need.


Edited by Narciss, 14 August 2014 - 05:03.


#15 Berlo

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 05:09

I think you guys are missing the point I am trying to make. I don't think it is okay to roll need on every single piece of loot that drops. What I am saying is roll need on the loot that will improve your character's stats or attributes from what they are currently wearing.

 

The reason greed rolls exists is so that if no one requires the loot that has dropped, they can roll on it specifically for monetary profit. So if a piece of equipment dropped that wasn't beneficial to your class, but you wanted it so you could sell it, you should roll greed.

 

Elemental Flakes are used to craft high end equipment for your character's current level. They are a necessity to improving your character's stats and attributes because the equipment made from them is an improvement. So why would you roll greed on something that isn't going to be sold for profit?

 

If the Elemental Flake that drops is not going to be used to improve your equipment, you should roll greed on it. If every single person in the group can use the Elemental Flake to improve their equipment, they should all roll need, this way it is 100% error proof that a fair roll is made of the loot and someone doesn't essentially "ninja" it by pressing need after everyone has rolled greed.


Edited by Berlo, 14 August 2014 - 05:12.


#16 sdcrichy

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 06:15

flakes are needed by everyone upto lvl 35 set so everyone needs them really. but the unwritten rule is the if you WANT the (rem,gem,flake) you greed. any weapon or piece of armor to improve your set need and pass anything you dont want at all. items that won't improve your character but you can sell greed.

 

that just the way everyone has done it from the start Berlo, if you explain to the group you was in you find that the system is not what you are used too then they might understand. but at your lvl someone should have said something about the unwritten rules all ready.

 

i'm not getting on at you but think one pearson can change his ways rather than the whole off eldevin. i know it might be confusing as to why we do this but it just has stuck from the start. :P

 

ps some lvl 45's have alt characters so need the flakes for there lower lvl characters.



#17 Berlo

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 06:27

I'm just trying to understand a flawed system. There is room for error here and I think "the standard" can be changed to be less confusing for players. I don't feel its fair to be kicked from groups solely because I rolled need on equipment or loot that is beneficial to me outside of a "gold worth" value.



#18 Gnipe

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 07:07

This thread really confuses me, I'm on Berlo's side on this, if you can need on something that improves your character you should always be able to roll need. There should be no "inside rules" on something like this. If you can be kicked from group because of this, then system must be changed like if there are items that everyone needs then you should only be able to need or pass.


Edited by Gnipe, 14 August 2014 - 07:09.


#19 Berlo

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 07:18

Blizzard, and many other MMORPG developers, have disabled the ability to roll need on items that can't be equipped for their specific class. However this would be difficult to implement as the class system in Eldevin is very flexible and people can reset their attributes/talents and start playing whatever class they prefer.

 

I'm happy for the current physical system to stay in place because it's been proven in other games need, greed and pass rolls work. But people seem to not understand how it works and just say "we do this because the community says that's how it is supposed to be".



#20 zargon

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 07:19

I'm just trying to understand a flawed system. There is room for error here and I think "the standard" can be changed to be less confusing for players. I don't feel its fair to be kicked from groups solely because I rolled need on equipment or loot that is beneficial to me outside of a "gold worth" value.

There is absolutely nothing flawed about a system that has a need function to allow you to NEED on bound set items or items which are for your character specific. If everyone needs on everything, then this would not happen and that my friend would be a flawed system. The only reason you are fighting this issue is because some rude people yelled at you for something you did not know. But now you should know after it's been explained. Just accept the system and move on and don't fight it. You do not need be defensive and try to justify or rationalize what happened by comparing it to any other form of logic when it's a common misunderstanding for newer players. This is my last words on the matter. I know you understand this so I really don't want to type anything more on this. Good luck out there.

 

 

In case this needs to be eloborated further, then review this scenario:

 

You are in a dungeon with a Tank, Warrior, Mage, Healer and Ranger. Set Heavy gloves drop (these are bound on acquire). Both Tank and Warrior are the only ones that can use it and they both need it. How does everyone roll on this ?

 

Answer: The Tank and warrior choose NEED. The reset choose Greed or ever Pass.

As Greed is used all the time for all drops you do not need and can use to vendor to help pay for reapirs, people will click GREED all the time. Pass is good to use when you are helping noobies.


Edited by zargon, 14 August 2014 - 07:58.



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