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Need VS Greed


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#41 Narciss

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 08:58

Convenience was your response. What is the convenience of rolling greed on something that you require to improve your character, with the chance someone else will roll need and take the equipment anyway? If everyone rolled need, there would be no way someone could essentially steal the equipment and everyone would get a fair roll. :)

 

Read my previous post

 

The one who needs everything, they cant get a place to run a dungeon. So dont worry, once they are "famous" for stealing, no place in instance/dungeon.

 

Edit: In addition to, there is no way to get the set without group.


Edited by Narciss, 14 August 2014 - 09:02.


#42 Berlo

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 09:02

But I didn't say roll need everything at all. In fact I said that's a bad idea. I said, roll need the items that will improve your character's stats or attributes.

 

I think you guys are missing the point I am trying to make. I don't think it is okay to roll need on every single piece of loot that drops. What I am saying is roll need on the loot that will improve your character's stats or attributes from what they are currently wearing.


Edited by Berlo, 14 August 2014 - 09:04.


#43 Narciss

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 09:03

But I didn't say roll need everything at all. In fact I said that's a bad idea. I said, roll need the items that will improve your character's stats or attributes.

 

True, but I will try to explain this one last time.

 

1. It is difficult to choose need or greed every single time.

 

2. You can actually misclick need when you dont need it.



#44 Xian

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 09:04

Convenience was your response. What is the convenience of rolling greed on something that you require to improve your character, with the chance someone else will roll need and take the equipment anyway? If everyone rolled need, there would be no way someone could essentially steal the equipment and everyone would get a fair roll. :)

 

The convenience is not for you who need the equipments.  It's for the high level players who have run 100+ dungeons and have complete set.  When you have run that much,  choosing greed or need becomes repetitive and boring and slow.  So we just want to click fast and get it over with.  As Narciss explained, there are 2 choices for this, we either need everything or greed everything.  As you can see, needing everything is problematic so we just agreed to greed everything.



#45 zargon

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 09:05

But I didn't say roll need everything at all. In fact I said that's a bad idea. I said, roll need the items that will improve your character's stats or attributes.

Ok, guys - I don't really need that Def Onyx or the Double Haste Staff for my character. So please need on it and I will just choose greed.



#46 Berlo

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 09:06

The convenience is not for you who need the equipments.  It's for the high level players who have run 100+ dungeons and have complete set.  When you have run that much,  choosing greed or need becomes repetitive and boring and slow.  So we just want to click fast and get it over with.  As Narciss explained, there are 2 choices for this, we either need everything or greed everything.  As you can see, needing everything is problematic so we just agreed to greed everything.

 

That is called being lazy and not using the system for the purpose it is meant to be used for. I mean ,if you are in a dungeon and just doing it over and over for profit, just roll greed on the items.


Edited by Berlo, 14 August 2014 - 09:08.


#47 Anakiro

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 09:07

Guys, guys. Relax.

 

Most MMOs on the internet follow a system similar to how Berlo has outlined it. You need on things you need and greed on things you don't need. This includes things that you will sell for gaining gold. If your character in your situation needs that item, you should probably be rolling need on it.

 

That being said, there's a internal set of unwritten rules in Eldevin that says certain items shouldn't be needed upon. That's fine, as long as the whole group understands this before they set out on whatever they're doing. It's not fair to expect someone to follow the house rules if you don't know if they know them.

 

When we release on Steam there's going to be lots of people who don't understand the house rules for rolling on loot. At that point we may see a shift to the more conventional uses of need vs greed rolling.

 

Just make sure you're clear on your loot rules before you set off on your adventure.



#48 Berlo

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 09:09

Guys, guys. Relax.

 

Most MMOs on the internet follow a system similar to how Berlo has outlined it. You need on things you need and greed on things you don't need. This includes things that you will sell for gaining gold. If your character in your situation needs that item, you should probably be rolling need on it.

 

That being said, there's a internal set of unwritten rules in Eldevin that says certain items shouldn't be needed upon. That's fine, as long as the whole group understands this before they set out on whatever they're doing. It's not fair to expect someone to follow the house rules if you don't know if they know them.

 

When we release on Steam there's going to be lots of people who don't understand the house rules for rolling on loot. At that point we may see a shift to the more conventional uses of need vs greed rolling.

 

Just make sure you're clear on your loot rules before you set off on your adventure.

 

Pretty much the response I was waiting for. Thank you.



#49 zargon

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 09:11

You go ahead and follow what Anakiro says and see how the community which supports the unwritten rules will react. Anakiro only told you how the general MMO model looks like. Not how it actually exists in the game. Will HCS staff then force players to group with people who need on flakes, rem, gems and godly items ?

 

Now there is an important question for the staff.


Edited by zargon, 14 August 2014 - 09:17.


#50 Xian

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 09:13

That is called being lazy and not using the system for the purpose it is meant to be used for. I mean ,if you are in a dungeon and just doing it over and over for profit, just roll greed on the items.

 

But rems, flakes, and gems (especially howlite :P )  are much much more profitable than other loot. omnomnom

 

Don't worry you'll get lazy too when you get to lvl 45 dungeons :D



#51 Anakiro

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 09:21

Will HCS staff then force players to group with people who need on flakes, rem, gems and godly items ?

 

Now there is an important question for the staff.

 

Of course not. If someone does something that you've agreed is against your rolling policy you're entitled not to play with them anymore. All I'm suggesting is that you get all that straightened out before you start, and then everyone's reading from the same page.



#52 Berlo

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 09:24

You go ahead and follow what Anakiro says and see how the community which supports the unwritten rules will react. Anakiro only told you how the general MMO model looks like. Not how it actually exists in the game. Will HCS staff then force players to group with people who need on flakes, rem, gems and godly items ?

 

Now there is an important question for the staff.

I merely joined the group, followed what is pretty much industry standard for need/greed systems and was kicked because there was an unwritten set of rules that a new player was not aware of. I don't know what that has to do with staff members and forcing need rolls on certain loot.



#53 zargon

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 09:26

Of course not. If someone does something that you've agreed is against your rolling policy you're entitled not to play with them anymore. All I'm suggesting is that you get all that straightened out before you start, and then everyone's reading from the same page.

Understood. This post was started because of one person not understanding the roll system. The overwhelming majority of our community collectively agrees on the loot rules. This was explained in this thread and is explained by many others in games either beforehand or when a new person chooses need when they should not. This was simply another media for informing new players.

 

 

 

I merely joined the group, followed what is pretty much industry standard for need/greed systems and was kicked because there was an unwritten set of rules that a new player was not aware of. I don't know what that has to do with staff members and forcing need rolls on certain loot.

 

yes, and we did say that it was wrong for you to be kicked if it was your first offense.

 

You were grinning like a chesshire cat when Anakiro said something you liked as if he were your saviour making you right. That is not the case, This is not about what Anakiro says, unless he chooses to revamp the whole loot system. You can follow the guidelines of the community or you may find getting groups to be very hard as HCS cannot force people to group with others who abuse the system in place.


Edited by zargon, 14 August 2014 - 09:35.


#54 Dampard

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 09:33

yeah, I got kicked too..few times.. It hurts when you are clueless what went wrong. About need and greed in Eldevin sure isn't the way we thought it should be. Always thought greed is more selfish than need. Not  till a Lvl 45 veteran told me about the ethics of this game.



#55 Berlo

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 09:35

I can sense tension coming the second this game hits the Steam store. The veteran players who refuse to understand and learn a system are going to knitpick the new players for doing what they are accustomed to. I hope it doesn't result in people losing interest in the game because the veterans are only interested in doing what they have always done and shun everyone else for thinking differently.



#56 zargon

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 09:38

I can sense tension coming the second this game hits the Steam store. The veteran players who refuse to understand and learn a system are going to knitpick the new players for doing what they are accustomed to. I hope it doesn't result in people losing interest in the game because the veterans are only interested in doing what they have always done and shun everyone else for thinking differently.

This is why people use forums with help sections, class guide, suggestions, etc. and generally the community is very good about guiding and helping people in-game. You just had an unfortunate experience.

 

now I have to go get sleep - down to 6 hours before I have to get up. I will check back tomorrow or w./e

 

Also, you would not travel to a foreign country and say "screw you, this is how I am used to doing it in my country". No, you should learn a little more about the culture beforehand.


Edited by zargon, 14 August 2014 - 09:46.


#57 ernzor

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 09:38

I think the best way to explain why it is the way it is berlo, is that it is common practice (here, perhaps not in other games) to greed all unless it is an immediate (you can equip it straight away) upgrade. There might be some cases where you can wear an item after a level up, in that case ask if you can need. That is for items.

Now, gems/rems/flakes are a constant commodity you wont out level you can always buy/sell/trade them, and as such, everyone needs them. Whether it is to build your new helm weapon or trade for a gem you need. Everyone should get equal chance on these.

So you're saying why doesn't everyone need then? If they do then as has been pointed out when you get to gear that is bound on pickup it is much easier to accidentally need them if you are in the habit of needing. And these bound items can be the most expensive items for that level range too.

Yes, you may need it and in some way so does everyone, and from a language perspective pressing need makes more sense. But to avoid trouble down the road, a common practice of greed is in effect.

Also, i have to say, some of the personal attacks in this thread are definitely not needed...

Naked pirate will be back!

When lvl 50 is here


#58 Berlo

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 09:43

Also, i have to say, some of the personal attacks in this thread are definitely not needed...

Personal attacks are never needed. I love having a constructive debate, it's what community's thrive on. Not everyone is going to agree with everyone else, but personal insults are never needed.



#59 Anakiro

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 09:48

I think all the points have been made that are going to be made. I'm going to go ahead and lock this thread in case it gets out of hand.

 

However, I will urge everyone to nail down the loot rules you're going to use if you're grouping with someone new in-game. They may not understand the rolling system in the same way that you do, and it would avoid a lot of friction.




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