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Something to help combat the simplicity of levelling these days.


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#61 yotwehc

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 09:03

I HOPE you're being sarcastic there, given that newer players have it SIGNIFICANTLY easier than older players had going thru content :)

:)

But it's an apples and orange comparison. Sure it was harder but you got fsp at a better conversion rate. You sold Titan gear for many more fsps. You sold buffs at higher prices. Just focusing on the negative aspect and trying to apply it to those that follows seem like an uncool move. Since everyone (except me) wants more of a challenge, why not suggest it from level 2.9k forward? Make all buffs not work. Make all kinds of crazy ideas so YOU can have that challenge again and hope HCS doesn't change the formula later. If they do, so what? You had fun. Feel sorry for the folks after you got no challenge and move on.

Don't look backward, look forward.

Edited by yotwehc, 01 February 2016 - 09:15.


#62 Pardoux

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 10:04

:)

But it's an apples and orange comparison. Sure it was harder but you got fsp at a better conversion rate. You sold Titan gear for many more fsps. You sold buffs at higher prices. Just focusing on the negative aspect and trying to apply it to those that follows seem like an uncool move. Since everyone (except me) wants more of a challenge, why not suggest it from level 2.9k forward? Make all buffs not work. Make all kinds of crazy ideas so YOU can have that challenge again and hope HCS doesn't change the formula later. If they do, so what? You had fun. Feel sorry for the folks after you got no challenge and move on.

Don't look backward, look forward.

 

Sure, there were better aspects of levelling earlier in the game, but I'd not agree with all your comments.

 

In reality, I don't expect the cows to change a thing regarding levelling - the comments from BG indicate the same, saying that "not everyone is in a massive guild with full upgrades" - the fact that, personally, I'm in a guild of 3 active players with a grand total of 5 structures doesn't seem to register.

 

Would I like change(s) ? - YES

Do I expect change(s) ? - NO


Homer : Marge, don't discourage the boy. Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals .. except the weasel.

 

Eddie Izzard : The National Rifle Association say that guns don't kill people, people do. But I think the gun helps, you know ? I think it helps. I think just standing there going "BANG" - that's not going to kill too many people, is it ?

 

I don't mean to sound pessimistic, but it seems that everything I eat lately turns to poo ...


#63 yotwehc

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 17:19

Sure, there were better aspects of levelling earlier in the game, but I'd not agree with all your comments.

 

In reality, I don't expect the cows to change a thing regarding levelling - the comments from BG indicate the same, saying that "not everyone is in a massive guild with full upgrades" - the fact that, personally, I'm in a guild of 3 active players with a grand total of 5 structures doesn't seem to register.

 

Would I like change(s) ? - YES

Do I expect change(s) ? - NO

I guess my point is you are asking for stuff to change for everyone behind you. Why not ask for change in front of you? I think it's far more likely to get change going forward then having changes applied backward or to take away skills.

 

Frankly it seems you want to make everyone else's life harder whilst you sit near EOC and not getting any challenge for yourself. As I mentioned, ask HCS to make devious critters from 2.9k forward. So in time, they may make it easier for those that come after you but why do you care? YOU had fun.

Suggest new critters:

- Some critters wipe out imps like SE's do in 1 fell swoop

- Some critters (maybe champions) will not allow the "OP" buffs like SH/CoA/KE to work

- Super Snow Leopard where it's rock paper scissors no matter what buffs you have

- etc, etc

 

Me being a noob, I don't see how things are so easy. Recently, I went to kill Dark Queen 300 levels below me. She was MEAN and kicked me around almost as badly as the Snow leopard did. Mirka is a beast. My KS rarely goes over 10k unless there is a GE going on otherwise I live up to my name by these critters but I'm a noob so that's understandable.

 

Anyway, my 2 cents



#64 EpicPiety

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 17:52

The game is treated as a whole if one parts broken it's all broken...can't just fix it level 3000+ because that wouldn't work it would still be broken.

#65 yotwehc

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 18:08

The game is treated as a whole if one parts broken it's all broken...can't just fix it level 3000+ because that wouldn't work it would still be broken.

So clamor for a fix when you are near eoc and not when you were "breezing" through the levels. How convenient ;)

#66 Pardoux

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 18:37

I guess my point is you are asking for stuff to change for everyone behind you. Why not ask for change in front of you? I think it's far more likely to get change going forward then having changes applied backward or to take away skills.

 

I've already stated that I'd be happy with that happening :P

 

It's funny that no-one (well, not many) complained about the game being dumbed down and then dumbed down more and then even more, but as soon as there's a call to start making it tougher again, folk come crawling out of the woodwork LOL.


Homer : Marge, don't discourage the boy. Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals .. except the weasel.

 

Eddie Izzard : The National Rifle Association say that guns don't kill people, people do. But I think the gun helps, you know ? I think it helps. I think just standing there going "BANG" - that's not going to kill too many people, is it ?

 

I don't mean to sound pessimistic, but it seems that everything I eat lately turns to poo ...


#67 yotwehc

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 18:42

I've already stated that I'd be happy with that happening :P

 

It's funny that no-one (well, not many) complained about the game being dumbed down and then dumbed down more and then even more, but as soon as there's a call to start making it tougher again, folk come crawling out of the woodwork LOL.

I think it's funnier when folks ask for it to be made tougher for everyone but themselves ;)



#68 Pardoux

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 18:53

I think it's funnier when folks ask for it to be made tougher for everyone but themselves ;)

 

That's not even close to being true ... As I've said several times in this thread, I'd still be happy if it got tougher from this point forward ..

 

It just needs to stop being so damned easy (levelling, I mean). Normal critters (and Champs) just need 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-R with no aforethought now - that's not a challenge, that's not interesting, it's just mind-numbing (but yes, I still do it ... )

 

Some elites and higher level creatures still provide a bit of a challenge - and some provide a lot of a challenge, but they're not (necessarily) part of LEVELLING ...

 

Other ASPECTS of the game are still more of a challenge too ..

 

The ONLY area I'm saying is WAY TOO EASY is levelling ..


Homer : Marge, don't discourage the boy. Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals .. except the weasel.

 

Eddie Izzard : The National Rifle Association say that guns don't kill people, people do. But I think the gun helps, you know ? I think it helps. I think just standing there going "BANG" - that's not going to kill too many people, is it ?

 

I don't mean to sound pessimistic, but it seems that everything I eat lately turns to poo ...


#69 yotwehc

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 19:05

I was just messaging with someone regarding the 2xp Composing Event and this thought popped into my head (we were discussing giving the game more of a challenge)

 

The thought I had referred to Summon Shield Imp (aka "get out of jail free" card)

 

My thought was :-

 

For creatures below Level 500, SSI functions exactly as it does now - i.e. 1/6 (from the buff) of the imps is killed in place of the player dying in combat.

 

For creatures between Level 501 and L1000, SSI takes 2/6 of the imps each time the player dies

For creatures between Level 1001 and L1500, SSI takes 3/6 of the imps

For creatures between L1501 and L2000, SSI takes 4/6 of the imps

For creatures between L2001 and L2500, SSI takes 5/6 of the imps

 

and, finally,

 

Any creatures above L2501, SSI is wiped out on a single player kill.

 

(Addendum :- I forgot to add that, if there are insufficient imps to withstand the "hit", then of course the player dies, rather than it just wipe out the remaining imps)

It's not much extra, but hey, ANYTHING that makes players take a little more notice and stop being so blase about hunting has to be a good thing, right ?

 

 

I've already stated that I'd be happy with that happening :P

 

It's funny that no-one (well, not many) complained about the game being dumbed down and then dumbed down more and then even more, but as soon as there's a call to start making it tougher again, folk come crawling out of the woodwork LOL.

Sorry - your OP is the key and several different opinions get scattered in between so it sounded like you are pushing for changes for all those behind you. "I'd be happy" doesn't sound like that strong of an endorsement. More like "settling" but you know how written text never gets the real gist... add that to my poor reading comprehension = deadly misunderstanding.

 

I have always tried to pipe up about game being dumbed down. I guess I haven't been doing a good job crawling out of the woodwork properly. I still struggle... I die a lot. I am admittedly a noob. I over buff. I don't want these changes but if they are going to do them, I am asking that it done forward and not backward. That is all.


Edited by yotwehc, 01 February 2016 - 19:06.


#70 Mister Doom

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 19:13

Leaving any of the levels unbalanced works against player retention from those levels.

If gamers aren't being challenged, they will not maintain the same level of participation.

 

If a player is finding the game difficult now, while at the same time having easy access to the higher level composing potions than they cannot be a gauge, they are ether lazy (too used to being told what to wear and when to wear it) or they simply do not WANT challenge.

 

Back when the game didn't consist of almost 3,000 levels of mindless pot up and easily 1-hit everything out there, it had a much healthier player base. Both in regards to sheer numbers AND the mindset of said players.

 

Some of the things that come out of players minds these days is quite frankly plain sickening.


Edited by Mister Doom, 01 February 2016 - 19:14.

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#71 Pardoux

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 19:27

Leaving any of the levels unbalanced works against player retention from those levels.

If gamers aren't being challenged, they will not maintain the same level of participation.

 

If a player is finding the game difficult now, while at the same time having easy access to the higher level composing potions than they cannot be a gauge, they are ether lazy (too used to being told what to wear and when to wear it) or they simply do not WANT challenge.

 

Whilst I'd try not to word it quite so harshly, I'd have to agree with the sentiment here ..


Homer : Marge, don't discourage the boy. Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals .. except the weasel.

 

Eddie Izzard : The National Rifle Association say that guns don't kill people, people do. But I think the gun helps, you know ? I think it helps. I think just standing there going "BANG" - that's not going to kill too many people, is it ?

 

I don't mean to sound pessimistic, but it seems that everything I eat lately turns to poo ...


#72 Pardoux

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 19:29

Sorry - your OP is the key and several different opinions get scattered in between so it sounded like you are pushing for changes for all those behind you. "I'd be happy" doesn't sound like that strong of an endorsement. More like "settling" but you know how written text never gets the real gist... add that to my poor reading comprehension = deadly misunderstanding.

 

I have always tried to pipe up about game being dumbed down. I guess I haven't been doing a good job crawling out of the woodwork properly. I still struggle... I die a lot. I am admittedly a noob. I over buff. I don't want these changes but if they are going to do them, I am asking that it done forward and not backward. That is all.

 

My OP was also PURELY about SSI being tweaked - and that effect, alone, would have had ZERO affect on very low level players, with the effect being a bit more harsh as you levelled through each 500 level band.

 

Hardly earth-shattering ;)


Homer : Marge, don't discourage the boy. Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals .. except the weasel.

 

Eddie Izzard : The National Rifle Association say that guns don't kill people, people do. But I think the gun helps, you know ? I think it helps. I think just standing there going "BANG" - that's not going to kill too many people, is it ?

 

I don't mean to sound pessimistic, but it seems that everything I eat lately turns to poo ...


#73 rowbeth

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 19:44

 Since everyone (except me) wants more of a challenge

 

Not just you :)

 

It seems to me that the key idea behind this thread misunderstands the reality of this sort of MMORPG.

 

Firstly, "challenge" does not mean "slower" or "more expensive". Making us 2-hit instead of 1-hit in hunts presents no challenge - just more boredom and frustration. Neither does making us cast SSI more often present a challenge - it just makes the hunt slower and require more stam. A "challenge" would be making it so that it takes thought and preparation in order to 1-hit instead of 2-hit. Unfortunately [in this context] players talk to each other. So as soon as the first few players tackle this "challenge", the rest of the community knows what to do, guilds acquire the relevant equipment, and the rest of the community finds the challenge is gone.

 

I can't help thinking that the challenge will only ever be available for the first few to EOC and not to the bulk of the players. Swapping this around means that lack of "challenge" in hunting will always be a fact of life for the vast majority of the community.

 

 

So I am all for enjoying what we've got.


Edited by rowbeth, 01 February 2016 - 19:46.


#74 yotwehc

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 19:47

...

If a player is finding the game difficult now, while at the same time having easy access to the higher level composing potions than they cannot be a gauge, they are ether lazy (too used to being told what to wear and when to wear it) or they simply do not WANT challenge.

...

Some of the things that come out of players minds these days is quite frankly plain sickening.

Making the assumption that everything is black and white and there are only Lazy people or people that do not want challenge is more sickening to me.

 

Are there players that want to be self sufficient and try to use their own pots/buffs? Pythia is a great example of this. She does not want to use my "OP" pots nor some of the guild gear (Crystal). She takes the slow road and enjoys looking at critters/players/gear and different configurations.

 

Are all players online as much as some of the hard core players are on? Are they lazy because they only want to/can spend a few minutes/day/week in game? Is it a problem that they play other games too?

 

sad...


Edited by yotwehc, 01 February 2016 - 19:49.


#75 EpicPiety

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 19:49

So clamor for a fix when you are near eoc and not when you were "breezing" through the levels. How convenient ;)

its all relative...everyone had equal opportunity to do what the next guy did. Same as they will if this is changed. You act as if I breezed through it anyways I payed out more than some peoples accounts are worth just for levels alone.

#76 EpicPiety

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 19:51

Leaving any of the levels unbalanced works against player retention from those levels.
If gamers aren't being challenged, they will not maintain the same level of participation.
 
If a player is finding the game difficult now, while at the same time having easy access to the higher level composing potions than they cannot be a gauge, they are ether lazy (too used to being told what to wear and when to wear it) or they simply do not WANT challenge.
 
Back when the game didn't consist of almost 3,000 levels of mindless pot up and easily 1-hit everything out there, it had a much healthier player base. Both in regards to sheer numbers AND the mindset of said players.
 
Some of the things that come out of players minds these days is quite frankly plain sickening.

i tend to agree with this totally... want to replicate the past? Reinstate the pasts game principles etc...it's proven to work. As the game changed more and more people left.

#77 Belaric

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 20:00

Ideas to make levelling harder going forward.

 

Some of these have been suggested before.

 

1) Individual Monsters have new enhancements that can negate specific buffs - smashing hammer, KE, etc. This alone could provide plenty of challenge if the mobs are placed in a challenging order, and with stats to take advantage of the weakness they create by nerfing SH etc. (nerf SH on a mob with big HP or armour, nerf KE on a mob with high def etc.) 

 

2) Individual Monsters have an anti-magic shell/ability that drops the power of ALL buffs used against them/in their vicinity by 100-200 etc. with 175 as the lowest it can reduce the power of buffs. This might be easier for HCS to create, and is a simple counter to the presence of overpowered buffs.

 

3) New category of realm that does either or both of the above. Like a dark realm, but these Shadow infused areas negatively effect the power of buffs used in them.

 

4) New category of realm that renders legendary sets inert, another trap by the Shadow Lord to make it harder for the heroes of the realms to reach him. This will force players to use SE, Elite, Champ sets etc. This combined with mobs that can nerf some of the stronger hunting buffs could provide a stern challenge.

 

5) New category of realm that negates forging and/or crafting and associated buff bonuses while the player is there. Another way to reduce the statistical advantage the players hold. 

 

6) Go the whole hog and have a common items only realm - BUT - HCS would then need to ensure that there are common items available that would work. At EOC and many levels behind there is not a complete set of common items for players to wear. And there isn't much skill in putting that common set together, as the stats are what they are.

 

7) Realms that nerf relic bonuses to stats. 

 

8) Combinations of above realms and mobs to make it extremely hard to fight through. These kinds of areas - not small - 25 thick, would make sense as a final sequence towards an end game of actually defeating the Shadow Lord, if such a move were ever contemplated.

 

If you want it to be harder to level, these ideas will help I think.

 

I do not think they can be retroactive, however, only going forward with new content.

 

You could have an event during which the anti-magi/buff reducing power is activated over all monsters in the realms, but in return they yield more XP - they will be tougher to kill so the players gain more reward. that might be an interesting variant on 2x XP events...

 

We are left with the first 2875 levels of content. Retrospective changes to make those levels harder is difficult to justify,as it is very difficult not to see it as highly unfair on those players who are not already at EOC. But that would be HCS's call.

 

My few cents. 


Edited by Belaric, 01 February 2016 - 20:17.

Good-bye and hello, as always.


#78 Belaric

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 20:20

And any increase in difficulty will experience what Rowbeth described. A few Pathfinders - the first players through - will work out how to defeat the new more challenging levels, and the information will be shared so those who follow will probably just employ the advice they are given, rather than working it out for themselves. Guilds will collect the appropriate gear, and the problem will be solved. The areas will remain harder, but the solutions will not remain a mystery.

 

I think it could still be an improvement, but the community and HCs would have to be committed to it.

 

And these ideas will take a lot of work. Are we prepared to wait longer for new content?

 

Would these changes make levelling nigh impossible for those not in large guilds?

 

HCS would have to weigh those factors carefully - they have to keep all their customers happy as much of the time as possible. What proportion of the community truly desires this much challenge, and are they the people HCS most wants to keep happy? I do not know. That, as I said, is HCS's call to make. Nice to throw the ideas out there though. 


Edited by Belaric, 01 February 2016 - 20:21.

Good-bye and hello, as always.


#79 Mister Doom

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 20:26

Positive 'retroactive' adjustments are made to older content all of the time. Via new potions, gear etc etc.

 

There is nothing wrong/stopping them from making what some may perceive as 'negative' adjustments once you realise this.


Edited by Mister Doom, 01 February 2016 - 20:29.

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#80 Egami

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 20:47

My only question to everybody out there: does anybody really believe that making things harder for levelers will solve anything? 

 

As far as EOC, it's already been said: EOC was a couple thousand levels below where it is now. Any change you make to make it harder for current EOCers will then affect everything in game. 

 

For us "oldies", sure it's several times easier to level than it used to be. 

 

That said, I still fail to see the point. 

 

To restate: do you really believe that making leveling harder will increase the player base? 




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